The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Where the Action is Not

Honestly, I'd like to rant more about how Warrior DPS is still way too low in PvE. Especially since I keep seeing posts on the forums from the blues telling me classes with equal or better DPS are in fact too low. It's sort of maddening, really. But as much as I'd like to go on a written rampage about encounter design serving as an arbitrary limiter to warrior DPS in Ulduar, and how paradoxically my DPS is at its best on fights that are supposed to be hard mode fights (this week, for instance, my personal highest DPS numbers were recorded on XT - 002's Heartbreaker mode, where two Warriors including myself finally managed to break the top four and were ahead of the other hybrids) due to the mechanics of those fights actually allowing the warrior some uninterrupted DPS time.
But unfortunately, a whole lot has been said about tanking this past week. So as maddening, vexing, downright baffling as I find the encounter design limitations of Warrior DPS in some cases (really, not much can irritate me like knowing my DPS time was broken up by big chunks of having to run away, run around, get out of the way of lightning or exploding seeds or any of the sixteen things Mimiron does that make me unhappy to be alive) that rant's going to have to stay confined to these opening paragraphs. (For a simulation of what I sound like during a raid, get four angry woodpeckers and have them attack your keyboard while you scream "Oh, COME ON" every few seconds and imagine you're the Gravity Bomb again.)
So what happened with tanking this week, you ask? Well, more was said about block, about avoidance, and about tanking specced players as DPS and in PvP. So let's go over what was said.
First off, let's talk about the avoidance changes. As I stated last week, I am aware that these changes will hit some classes harder than warrior tanks, who are one of two tanking classes that can use all three stats (Dodge, Block and Parry) so that they don't have to depend on any one of them. However, what I saw in the discussion that interested me was the following quote from Ghostcrawler.
- This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.
We all remember Sunwell Radiance, which was put in purely because fully geared Druid tanks who'd been farming Hyjal and Black Temple were almost unstoppable by physical damage, they'd dodge almost everything a boss would throw at them. It was kludgy and inelegant and had the effect of punishing a tank for having made the reasonable assumption that he or she was supposed to use all of this gear that benefited him. If tweaking dodge downwards and parry upwards keeps this from happening again, or allows for an equilibrium in encounter design between avoidance (dodge and parry) and mitigation (block, armor, stamina) then that's fine. It has to take into account those thanks who can't use as broad a selection, of course, because at this point I'm frankly terrified for the future of the warrior class if warrior tanks become too popular. In the past few months the developers have shown a frank willingness to tour the warrior protection tree and its design far in excess of its actual performance in the game at the moment.
What I believe we need to see in encounter design is a more even distribution of damage that is lowered by our various mitigation options (returning Block to a place where it's actually a worthwhile stat) and the occasional big whack of damage that cooldowns and avoidance can be counted on to reduce. This has to be done without placing any one tanking class (not even Warriors, as much as I love them) on top of the totem pole, because if one class is clearly superior it will be chosen over other tanks, and then it will be nerfed. Furthermore, an avoidance heavy paradigm in tanking design actually goes against the core of the class as tanks. Warriors are supposed to be hit. Laying on the dodge so that you take as little damage as possible leads to rage generation that looks like a crazy amusement park ride, all dizzying highs and stomach lurching lows.
Now that we've talked about that, what about warrior tanks as DPS and in PvP?
- We want Prot warriors to do decent damage in PvE. We don't want them to do as good damage as actual dps specs -- there needs to be a trade-off for such high survivability. This means we need threat multipliers or you won't be able to actually hold aggro. It's okay if Shield Slam can make big (yet not absurd) numbers, since you don't Shield Slam all that much. That's fun. As I said above though, it would probably work better if Shield Slam hit hard because your Strength was high, not because you built a gimmicky set.
Yes, Warriors (and other classes to some extent) are always going to need threat multipliers, but we have to always remember that threat multipliers are never as compelling, lead to scaling issues (there's a reason Paladin tanks are still the kings of AoE tanking - take a paladin tank to Emalon and give him the adds to tank and his DPS will rival some of the actual DPS players, despite what Ghostcrawler has said above about not wanting tanks to do as much DPS as DPS specs) and in general lead to the sensation of 'overgearing the instance' which keeps being brought up, when you can't hold initial aggro unless everyone stands around doing nothing for a few seconds because the mobs don't hit the warrior tank hard enough for him to generate any rage to get threat in the first place.
In general I find this idea that warrior tanks are asking for (or even want) to do as much DPS as pure DPS specs, or even hybrids specced to DPS, to be kind of absurd. We just don't want to be the lowest DPS of the tanks. At present, there's absolutely no danger of a tanking warrior doing as much DPS as any other tanking class, especially when not tanking. If you have three tanks in a fight, and one of them is a Warrior, he'll be by far the bottom of the barrel. (My fresh 80 DK tank, who has only been gearing up for a week or so, can do as much damage as a tank spec as my Ulduar geared warrior - all hail Howling Blast.) This is not just important for hard modes where you need to squeeze as much DPS as possible from an encounter and therefore will always choose tanks who do more DPS while tanking, it's also important because of the impact seeing other tanks put out twice to three times as much DPS has on the fun factor for warrior tanks. There's nothing fun about feeling like last year's model.
In short (too late) it's not that I even object to what's being said so much as I find the lack of motion for the warrior class perplexing. Warriors as tanks are the twitchiest, require the most effort to tank well with (I do not recommend you roll a DK for tanking if you want to continue to enjoy warrior tanking) and while they have a very nice assortment of skills and talents they're still at the absolute bottom of the totem pole for DPS while tanking. No matter what anyone says, a Prot Warrior who will not be tanking for a particular fight is of much greater utility to the raid if he uses Dual Talent Specialization and goes Arms or Fury than he will be trying to pump out damage in his tank spec. It's simply not tenable.
Next week, hopefully I get to have that rant about encounter design and DPS warriors.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Buffs, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Forums
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Unain Jul 17th 2009 5:39AM
I did a VoA25 man last night with my prot warrior and was able to do 2800 dps while tanking the adds. That's just because I cleave a lot and we had a good group synergy (as in good buffs for a melee).
Still if it wasn't for the amount of rage you get on that fight, I wouldn't be able to do that. I was in my full avoidance set though (28% dodge, 19% parry, 20% block).
Single target we still suck at dps... I usually tank patchwerk with a prot pally and usually get beat by 400 dps more :X. I still can't believe that they will be nerfing Shield Slam the next patch...
Naheru Jul 17th 2009 8:55AM
This is like telling blizzard to give Holy Paladins Circle of Healing or Wild Growth... It's just the way the classes are at the moment: unbalanced. A warrior can HARDLY tank AoE packs, altough it's possible.
My suggestions would either be reduce cooldown on thunder clap or improve its efficiency, and /or give warriors some kind of Righteous Fury that would give them more threat from bleed? (Just brainstorming, don't cut me already). Shockwave is +-, but it stuns. And when mobs dont attack you, you can't make rage.
A revamp to the rage system would be good, but I don't think there's much where to choose from. 3.2 WAS going to fix most of the problems with rage from avoidance, but they nerfed the rest....
Blizzard really needs to check out the definition of balance in the dictionary, even though I know it's hard...
huangism Jul 17th 2009 9:31AM
what are you talking warrior dps is low comparing to other hybrid classes?? i am fury and i am in the top 5 almost every fight in ulduar. kologram or whatever that boss name is, fury should come in number 1 always.
maybe you are doing something wrong but all the good warriors i see their wws shows them at top 5 almost every fight
Jpad218 Jul 17th 2009 10:17AM
What is warrior tanking? Lol well all I can say is I gave up tanking in current raids due to all this bullshhhtt. So until they do something about it I'll just sit back relax and dps let all the pallys, Druids do my dirty work.
Naix Jul 17th 2009 10:23AM
So much QQ in here the ground is soaked with tears. Every class has had their day in the sun and has been beaten senseless with the nurf bat. Hay it happens. Warriors had dominated vanilla wow for tanking, rocked the arenas/BGs, and had been on top of the damage meters for a long long time. Welcome warriors to being a second class DPS/tanking class. Hybrids have been second class for, oh I don't know, 3+ years. Only able to fill one roll at end game usually involving healing a warrior. Blizzard had to buff all hybrids builds to become viable at end game.
The class mechanics of the warrior class are to outlast your opponent. Not out damage and out last. That would be too OP and cause unbalance in the game. Who would want to roll any other DPS class?
Go ahead and vote me down. Your only proving my point.
A1CYancy Jul 17th 2009 2:18PM
When were we ontop of damage meters? oh you mean those few miniscule weeks between 2 patches. Silly boy. With your mentality, resto druids and holy pallies should be suffering as they were dominating in those aspects in Vanilla. That makes NO sense.
Also, you're pretty stupid to come into a WARRIOR column that's obviously talking about some nerfing of our class and NOT expect us to be upset. I'm pretty sure priest forumns were roaring when they were talking about nerfing spirit. How stupid do you have to be?
Also, to some degree you warrior haters are right. Sometimes, your spec is on the top, sometimes on the bottom. What you are FAILING to grasp is the fact BOTH our DPS and TANKING can no longer compete. All you bear tanks will fire back "BC I couldn't get a group" but what you don't see or will refuse to admit is you could respec resto and get in groups. OUR problem is our tanking is mediocre and our DPS is downright pathetic. Maybe the NUMBERS for our DPS are solid but the simple fact is we have no raid utility. We are getting out DPSed by feral, boomkin, ret, and DKs. All of which not only out DPS us, but are just plain more useful. Let's make kings and might 2 minutes and only castable in combat. let's make auras only useable in combat. Now let's make all of those specs lowest DPS. You DON'T get into raids.
THe problem isn't that we aren't top. The problem is WE ARE A USELESS CLASS RIGHT NOW. A ret pally could be the lowest DPS in the raid and not get kicked because he/she has THREE vital buffs, 1 vital aura, and raid wide judgements.
Get THAT through your THICK hybrid dpsing SKULLS.
ohsnap Jul 17th 2009 5:16PM
no your wrong...war is on top to much thats why there getting nerf. blizz dont nerf classes that are behind. war has only 1 problem and thats rage gen and to fix taht get a small amount of armor pen and/or haste to up white dmg(white dmg = rage) and your golden....
for example pallys were WAY behind in BC and now they got buffed.
Mcdubs Jul 17th 2009 10:40AM
I will have to agree with the writer on this one. Tanking is what i love about WoW and have done since Vanilla...Yes i leveled as Prot in Vanilla..it was grueling. I now have a level 80 character in each of the tanking classes. My warrior is my main and is geared in mostly Ulduar 25 gear. My pally is in mostly Naxx gear as well as my druid. My DK is fresh to 80, so I actually can't comment to much on how he feels raid tanking yet.
To the point...of the three raid ready tanks i have, my warrior is the most difficult and frustrating one to play. Playing off tank on encounters is my worst nightmare and forget trying to out threat or dps a pally or druid. Don't get me wrong, I can lay down some decent threat with my warrior, but compared to my pally and druid, it feels like a workout. Now the dev's want to nerf my avoidance and reduce my shield slam damage...all in name of burst damage in PvP. Seems as if they have recognized a problem and rather than actually putting some thought into it, they shook the magic WoW 8-ball and came up with this terrible plan to fix it.
I like the plan to have strength be the mitigation modifier and do away with Block all together. Just have those talents scale on strength. It would make warriors think a bit more about their gems and enchants (maybe), so we are all not stacking stam and hoping taunt doesn't miss...
dj_stevie_c Jul 17th 2009 11:11AM
You've got these ranged things, hunters, mages, they can all do my dps job better than I can, there's also these sneaky rogue types that can do better than I can as well (I wonder why they constantly moan but there you go).
Then there's these others that are a bit like us, There's these things called Paladins and Druids that can tank better than I can, they can also dps better than me too, oh both can also heal better than I can... becuase I can't do that.
There's also these Death Knight guys, they can do the same two jobs as me but do them much better than I can. They have these spelly diseasy things that really annoy everything.
I will scream in your face or hit you really hard to piss you off. Warriors are fairly simple creatures really.
It's called Balance Blizz. Not nerf the shit out of something you might not like but many others do.
One thing I read in all these Q&A things was that a lot of players complained that PVP was looked at more than PVE when most players will PVE more than they PVP, the over-riding comment from Blizz was "we have to think about it". Fairly simple answer guys, make some talents SPECIFIC to PVP, put them on a level with other talents.
For example: Give warriors an 'end talent tree' talent that bursts resiliance or increases damage against resiliance targets. Give mages an end of talent skill that gives huge spell penetration for PVE, Have a 2nd end talent that boosts PVE stuff. You could follow that all the way down the tree so players choose talents on a PVP or PVE basis, if people want the same tree but PVE and PVP, well that's what Dual spec is for, you said ages ago you could easily introduce a third.... do it but force one to be a PVP spec or something. To test Invite people who have played these classes to 'trial' new skills and put them against other balanced classes to try out the PVP or PVE on ESTABLISHED content rather than new stuff.
Your community wants a great game as well as you. You could hide this as some kind of competition. Have a think guys please!
dj_stevie_c Jul 17th 2009 11:13AM
wtb edit button.... mage Spell power thing is for PVP obviously :D
Steikfrit Jul 17th 2009 12:03PM
Yes but the warrior should be a definition of the complete ultimate tank.
Or Blizzard should clean its class description texts. The druid can be both tank/dps with a single talent template, but it will never be the same as a feral going deep into tanking or into dps. A feral going deep into tanking in both talents and stuff, should be very close to the warrior but feel different. To the player, to the healers but I agree that both should be able to tank any boss or having raid leaders mandatory assignements of "tank class X for boss Y and nothing else".
Sometimes I'm asked why I roll a druid. I don't really know. I did not knew the game that much a few years ago, and that tanking would be my favorite thing to do (that's not enough of course. If I was utterly bad at tanking I would have stopped long ago). If it was possible, I would even pay to have my druid changed to a warrior because today I know what I like in the game: to tank. To be right in the front of the boss that tries to kill you while the raid is kicking his/her ass :)
The warrior seems more complex, which is something I welcome.
In raids as druid I have very few buttons. I select the boss, then rapidly do faerie fire and taunt.
I avoid charge as it can send me out of healer's range (I did charge Vezax in Ulduar 25 a few days ago instead of running to him as usual. The healers, out of reach, could not heal me for the first few seconds and "charge me" and I got pwned very fast and hard...).
Once engage, I Maul non-stop (I don't have the warrior's rage problem obviously, as from the first second of the fight to the last, I hit Maul 100 % of the time and it burns rage pretty fast but represents 50 to 60 % of my total TPS on a fight). While I keep Maul in the queue all the time, I mangle, lacerate (I only swipe if someone is getting close to my TPS, but I don't bother and I lacerare all the time with Maul and Mangle when it's up).
That's it. Three keys for the combat : Maul, Mangle, Lacerate.
I refresh the Demo Road from time to time (usually I don't, since the warrior puts a -20 % devastate armor on the boss).
And when things get tough, I use the Heart of Iron + +30 % life CD
It's a bit boring to be pressing Maul all the time and use two keys for a whole 10 min fight.
It gets the job done but that's it.
The warrior I'm levelling has much more buttons : disarm, vengeance, fulgurance, and various strikes I can do. What I like in the warrior is some buttons only become available if the boss/mob dodges or parries or blocks. So the fight is more dynamic: you have to keep an eye on buttons, you immediatly know when a boss has dodged or parried something, and you can hit him with a special key for revenge. It's a bit harder than having five buttons but much more fun.
I'd like to see the druid have some keys that only are available when the boss does something like that (or perhaps this should be kept only to the warrior so it's more fun to play ?)
With the warrior I can have fun with caster's and interrupts I can do. Something the druid does not have except a 1 min bash interrupt..
Anyway. Blizzard are the ones in control. We know that complaining even for years is not always heared (check the Tauren cat form and how long they kept it as is.. Most druids think they're doing something because a developper or graphist is playing a druid and has decided to take matters in hand. Otherwise, why would they do something for druids after years of ignoring the class problems ?)
I'm having a hell of a fun with the warrior I'm levelling.
And I'll spec him tank as the druid.
lethian Jul 17th 2009 1:01PM
i like u nicks u seem very level headed.. and i hope no one took offense a my comment earlier about how rogues have had to deal.. all i was trying to say is this game has a lot of issues.. and even though i play a dk most of the time.. i am not the kind who is normally nasty like quite a few Ive met. jsut wanted to clear that up :D
Sqtsquish Jul 17th 2009 1:13PM
As someone that plays prot warrior, combat rogue, and crazily BM hunter I need to make a comment: some classes and specs take nerfs in ways that hurt them in specific aspects of the game which might make a spec or job hard or nearly useless in the name of balance- we have no HUGE problem with that (we don't like it but we can deal with it) but what we don't like is being crappy at every role (assuming equal gear level and averaging the types of boss encounters).
lethian Jul 17th 2009 1:19PM
i get what u mean man.. i am just trying to say i understand ur guys ills Ive never been very good at explaining what i mean lol : /
Ger Jul 17th 2009 2:13PM
Why oh why would anyone want to bother with CC and marking with a warrior tank when they don't have to do that with other tanks?
I also enjoy tanking on my warrior. I'm raiding with a Resto Shaman and a Warrior Tank and I can definitely say it is more difficult to keep a warrior tank up than it is for a DK or Paladin (I've never healed a bear) and I can see some healers work harder to keep me healed when I tank on my warrior.
I can deal with Paladins and DKs having better multi-mob aggro control, but I seriously have a problem with Warriors not having as much survivability as well.
Naix Jul 17th 2009 2:40PM
"BOTH our DPS and TANKING can no longer compete. All you bear tanks will fire back "BC I couldn't get a group" but what you don't see or will refuse to admit is you could respec resto and get in groups. OUR problem is our tanking is mediocre and our DPS is downright pathetic."
Warrior DPS is suppose to be lower. Warriors are suppose to dish out good damage but be great at mitigating it. Just like a mage whos defense is to deal a great amount of damage and not be able to take a hit. Its called class balance. So your saying druids are only suppose to heal warriors right? Come on now. Druids had it the worse of any class for a long long time. The druid bear tank is all about avoidance because we can't use a shield. I would hate all the classes being the same and really enjoy the versatility of tanking classes.
"let's make auras only useable in combat. "
Auras ARE only useful when in combat. Why else would you need 5% to melee crit outside of combat?
"The problem is WE ARE A USELESS CLASS RIGHT NOW."
Maybe the problem is warriors don't know how to best use their class outside of just tanking.
Ger Jul 17th 2009 4:01PM
Quote from Naix "Maybe the problem is warriors don't know how to best use their class outside of just tanking."
That is a laughable statement coming from a class that can tank, heal, melee AND spellcast DPS. There are a great number of people that play this game well and a great number that play it poorly, but to suggest that Warriors aren't comparable in DPS because not a single person that plays a warrior knows how to play DPS is ridiculous.
I just know that I felt more than worthless compared to Paladin tanks in BC. WotLK made me feel like a worthy tank again in comparison to other class tanks. Now I see we're going down that same road of being 2nd or 3rd class tanks once again and how can anyone blame us for being bothered by that. Sure, every class has had woes in the past but we just had Blizzard promise nice upgrades to Paladins in 3.2 and say that Warriors are fine as they are. That's messed up.
Sqtsquish Jul 17th 2009 4:42PM
Aside from in pvp or the random heroic- when are dps warriors even remotely able to mitigate damage? we get aggro or do something dumb we die just as fast as any other class on a boss fight. period. We ware plate- so do ret pallies and dks- they still do more reliable dps than we do in their dps specs- their tanking mechanics work better than ours- and they have more raid utility than we ever had.
Naix Jul 17th 2009 5:35PM
"to suggest that Warriors aren't comparable in DPS because not a single person that plays a warrior knows how to play DPS is ridiculous."
I am not suggesting that at all. What I am suggesting is maybe that warriors are approaching a fight like a tank and not a dps class. Not to mention the warrior class is about mitigation and not about top DPS.
"Warriors are fine as they are."
I have to agree because warriors mitigate damage received fine and put out good, not top, dps. If you wanta be top of the DPS meters roll a rogue or DK.
Sqtsquish Jul 17th 2009 6:38PM
your statements there are contradictory even if they are correct- if we are approaching a fight like a tank and not a dps then wouldn't we be rewarded in some way for being as you call it a "mitigation" class? The only places I've seen a extra buff for the extra armor we have is when a heroic boss whirlwinds or in pvp- which has nothing to do with our discussion of pve dps mechanics- frankly I can understand them nerfing arms damage because the nature of wielding a single 2 handed weapon is more spikey in damage than dual wielding- not to mention our previous dps spec- fury was more squishy in pvp because of the stance anyway. In a pve scenario if you are a melee dps there is virtually no plus to having more armor in a ideal world- it is only when you do are dumb enough to have a boss hit you with physical damage that armor comes into play at all.