Warrior Q&A Analysis continued

- Q: Demoralizing shout tends to have a very minimal impact in most situations, are there plans to improve this ability?
- A: I think by "most situations" you must mean "PvP." Demo Shout has a massive benefit against raid bosses. It's probably 20% less damage from a typical boss and literally like 50% against say Thorim's Unbalancing Strike. However, removing 400 attack power from a Feral druid with 9000 attack power, or a Shadow priest who doesn't care about attack power at all is of much more limited use. Monsters and players use pretty different combat formulae (which is one of the weird things about the old design of say Vindication). We would like Demo Shout to be more useful in PvP, at least against characters who rely on attack power.
More mention of changing rage generation - Now, long-term we need a better solution to rage generation. Tying it to damage done is logical in the theoretical world of game design, but has problems in reality. When your gear sucks, you have rage problems. When you have great gear, you are no longer limited by rage. That's just not a great model, and one of the reasons warriors are overly gear dependent.
I don't disagree in theory but every time Blizzard's monkeyed with rage generation, going all the way back to before Maraudon was in the game yet, they've made it worse before they made it better. I cringe when they talk about rage generation at this point. So I'm really, really fretful when I see them say these kinds of things.
- Q: Where do we feel warriors fit into the current raid environment and where do we see them progressing in the future?
- A: Obviously warriors were the traditional tanks and pretty much the only tank in much of World of Warcraft's history. Warriors now share tanking responsibilities with three other classes, which can feel psychologically like a nerf. In Ulduar, we think warrior tank balance is about where it should be -- death knights were a little ahead, paladins were a little behind, and druids were about even with warriors. We are making a few Prot changes to 3.2 to help in some of the areas where they fall short, such as damage done. Death knights are getting a nerf, paladins are getting a buff, and druids might get a nerf or stay as-is. There are plenty of guilds progressing through hard modes with warrior MTs on almost every fight, and we don't see that changing in the Crusader's Coliseum.
They mention that they're happy with warrior DPS in Ulduar. I'm not. Perhaps that's due to other hybrids being too good, I can't say for sure. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.
Block Value gets more of a discussion here than I've seen it in the past, so we'll recap it all now.
- Q: We have expressed an interest in improving Block Value for tanking warriors in the past; do we have any definite plans to update this?
- A: Shield Block Value just isn't a strong mitigation stat these days. However, the amount it would need to be increased is enormous in order to make a difference vs. bosses that can hit for 40K. The problem with improving shield Block Value by so much is that Prot warriors would be nigh invulnerable -- they literally might take no damage -- against large groups of adds, in easier content where opponents don't hit that hard, and in PvP. The real problem is that the amount blocked doesn't scale with the amount of the swing. We think block needs to be a percentage of damage blocked in order for the stat to do what we want. But the trade-off would mean that warriors (and paladins) couldn't block every incoming hit, especially from large groups. Avoidance might also need to come down across the board, and many talents and abilities would need to be redesigned. This is a major change that isn't the kind of thing we can crowbar into 3.2 with a clean conscience. It is almost certainly the future for the block stat.
A percentage based block value is not one I've considered (my own suggestion this week was to just scrap BV in favor of a strength based system) but it's not a bad one. Frankly, I'd like to see them at least try to crowbar it into the PTR and give it a shakedown, but I understand why they don't want to do that. It does seem a more elegant solution than the current 'you block almost nothing and die anyway' system.
Strength as a threat stat and the current mind-set of warrior tanks stacking as much avoidance as they can and ignoring threat stats like strength and block value (currently) is mentioned. Frankly, if Blizzard has a problem with this gearing philosophy, you need to tone down the ludicrously high blasts of damage from bosses. If when I gear for threat I die, I'm not going to gear for threat. This is a simple concept. We have made some big improvements to Prot warrior dps in Lich King, but too many players still view the primary role of the tank to stack avoidance and mitigation and then complain when their threat is low because they avoided all dps stats. If you're going to make statements like that, you're obligated to not kill me if I take your advice.
From here we close out the Q&A with two discussions of PvP. One, warriors are always going to be healer reliant in PvP (not a surprise, it's why so many warriors abandoned the class for DK's for PvP purposes) and there are no plans to change PvP itemization for rings, necks and capes to add strength options even though they've deliberately changed warrior talents to favor strength over AP. Disappointing, but not a shock.
I found the PvP discussion to be fairly lackluster in this particular Q&A and I wasn't really terribly surprised or satisfied, but aside from the terror I feel at their upcoming 'rage balancing' (oh lord they're going to screw us up so bad we won't even have the rage to tank Deadmines) I'm reasonably optimistic.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Mortiseraphim Jul 16th 2009 5:24PM
They really just need to go back to letting battle shout stack with paladin buffs. This whole homoginization of buffs has still left me a little sore. The raid utility of warrior dps is nearly null save for commanding shout (which only lasts a few mins) and blood frenzy which, albeit is helpful, its not going to make or break a fight. Warrior buffs need a serious....well, buff. All I see in endgame progression raiding is shamans, druids, and rogues for melee and the ocassional paladin (simply for raid buffs of course) or DK (since they are OP). Warriors are generally only taken as a pinch hitter OT.
So I agree, I'm not happy with warrior deeps either but I'll beat my face against stuff until the end of days anyway *grumble grumble* Damn kids and thier stupid baseball.....
Logan Jul 16th 2009 5:26PM
On a Block note; a while ago it was discussed over at a tankadin forum (www.rhida.ch), that while a percentage based system has the potential to be "Great" against hard hitting bosses, it would be somewhat counterproductive for thrash and AoE tanking situations, and some of the posters liked the idea of getting a somewhat Hybrid system where you can block a hit for XXX ammount of dmg OR XXX% of the hit taking into account which one is higher, thatway you could keep block value as an offensive stat for abilities like Shield Slam or the paladin clone "Shield of Righteousness", while remaining viable for both multiple weak hits and truck-sized beatings from bosses.
I´m not sure how they could implement it and im pretty sure it would mean a reworking of many of the shield-specific skills/spells from both board wielding classes, but definitively doable.
Robert M Jul 16th 2009 5:51PM
Let them decrease the usefulness of block on trash all they want. Rossi’s statement of “If when I gear for threat I die, I'm not going to gear for threat,” applies to block as well. If they want block to be sexier as a stat and not the filler mitigation it is now, they don’t need to punish us when we gear for it.
That being said, I don’t know if you remember the old blessing of sanctuary, but it was a value reduction and not a percentage reduction. The change has been for the better. Blocking a % is much better than making us shield bearers eat all that unblocked damage because our BV is 1500 and the boss is hitting for 40k.
http://rhabellasrants.blogspot.com/
PodPeople Jul 16th 2009 6:35PM
I agree Robert. I don't care if my block lets in 40-50% of that 5k hit from a trash mob, if it can block 40-50% of that 35k hit from a Boss. all I can say is about Fucking time they figured out that % scales better than raw numbers. if 40-50% is OP then have it so block is on an internal CD of say 20-40sec so it can't happen "too often". i was actually thinking mitigation of block should have a base % of say 30 and that could be modified with Str and/or block rating with diminishing returns after say 60%.
Sqtsquish Jul 16th 2009 5:28PM
Can't argue with any of ur comments there. IMO druids are the only class out there that just a raidleader wouldn't have tanking instead of a warrior just based on class
Gulliver Jul 16th 2009 5:30PM
I've been coming back here every 15 minutes waiting for your article Matt. You basically said everything that I've been thinking. Please please please test test test ANY rage changes. Also, when does spending rage gain rage? I suppose sunders add a little bit to my rage gen over time. /shrug
Joolz Jul 16th 2009 5:43PM
Demo shout has one VERY good use in pvp, getting people out of stealth. Especially great after a rogue vanishes.
A1CYancy Jul 16th 2009 6:31PM
If Demo shout needs a buff, why not just add a low proc of a cower? It could spell interrupt and stop a rogue in stealth. The low proc would balance it and even if you spammed it, it wouldn't be worth the constant rage dump but good enough to work it in the rotation.
Naix Jul 16th 2009 5:49PM
I thought warriors were supposed to be all hard and not QQ so much. Does your class need a tissue from the other tanking classes that only had 1 roll for two expansions?
Every class needs a little tweaking. Put your trust in Blizzard to deliver.
Matthew Rossi Jul 16th 2009 5:50PM
This from the whiner who will not stop complaining about shamans being OP.
Take your own advice.
JustinScott Jul 16th 2009 5:52PM
Matthew 1: Naix 0000
Gulliver Jul 16th 2009 5:53PM
The rage is a by product of our deep emotional pool. Sometimes I just need a good cry after smashing the brains out of my enemies.
Naix Jul 16th 2009 7:57PM
Considering Shamans do get the greatest buffs in the game and out damage every class is beside the point.
Yes warriors were the best tanking class but got over shadowed by other tanking classes. It stings and I feel ya coming from a top healing class.
Expect Blizzard to do the right thing and give buffs where they need to be.
Bod Jul 16th 2009 8:00PM
fantastic, matthew I like you more and more....game set and match to MR
Sqtsquish Jul 16th 2009 9:06PM
They key thing to remember is we don't have 1 true role, with the same gear level any comparable class does what we do better and they have far more utility than we do. As much as I love being able to help with demo shout and sunders it does not add close to anything compared to other classes
Naix Jul 29th 2009 9:37AM
I guess the warrior class is not as hard as I thought it was.
Looks like someone just leveled the playing field.
Haiku-Prince Jul 16th 2009 6:04PM
I recently rerolled as a Warrior (Arms), my intention was to keep up Woundeffect Dots etc while levelling, as not to kill my rotation as a Muti Rogue/Feral Druid/Shadow Priest and the mandatory `Lock.
I was shocked when I was getting the results in forms of sub-par DPS, even though being at least trained/ used to keeping debuffs up all time.
As much as I like my new shiny "soldierly" Warrior, I have to say the experience was somewhat... Underwhelming?
Rage is always an issue, as long as Ret-Paladins do considerably more damage in PvE while staying a Powerhouse in PvP.
Tridus Jul 16th 2009 6:04PM
"Frankly, if Blizzard has a problem with this gearing philosophy, you need to tone down the ludicrously high blasts of damage from bosses. If when I gear for threat I die, I'm not going to gear for threat."
QFT. It's silly of them to expect otherwise given the stupid burst damage.
Brasson Jul 17th 2009 12:00AM
Mad props for the Black Company reference. Ties in well with the "players as mercenaries" discussion.
Cambro Jul 17th 2009 5:07AM
Maybe not the best place for my question, but at least I'm remembering to ask it...
For stance dancing, is there in fact either a pre-set set of keybinds, OR a way to keybind each of the stances, so that I don't have to either make my own macro or click the various stance buttons? I've never been able to find it, but contrary to the controls for hunters/warlocks that have "control+[x]" preset, I've found no option for warriors.
Great analysis by the way.