Officers' Quarters: On the brink

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
A few weeks ago, I talked about the difficulty of maintaining an active raiding schedule all summer long -- and what you can do about it. This week's e-mail is from yet another victim of the summer raiding slump, but his guild has some other issues going on here, too.
Hey Scott,
I'm an officer of a relatively new raiding guild (3-4 months old). We formed a few weeks before 3.1 and built the guild up from almost nothing besides the group of friends we had. The core group started out almost in Best in Slot gear but most of the people we recruited were undergeared so we ended up having to run Naxx for almost a month after 3.1 before we had the gear to really push Ulduar. That being said we have done phenomenally well in the time we have spent in Ulduar. We have downed all the watchers[. . . .] We consider ourselves way ahead of where we should be for such a young guild.
However we seem to have numerous problems.
We can never field full raids for 3 days a week and often have to go with offspec healers and 22-23 people one night of the week. This leads to times when we have to call raids on raid nights because not enough people show up. Some other nights are just bad nights; we go from one shotting Thorim one week to spending 3 hours on him the next.
This leads to a very tense feeling in the guild since we never seem to know how good we will do; and some of the members that I've talked to are upset with the guild even with our great progress. There is little guild cohesion and people view the original members of the guild as an exclusive clique who have priorty on loot council (which they don't). There are also some key problem members or just bad players[. . . .] We keep pushing recruiting hard on the forums and in game but the few apps we get are people in mostly 5-man gear which we can't take to Ulduar with us.
To me it feels like a guild on the brink and I hold my breath every time before we raid regardless of the amazing progress we have made. Do you have any suggestions on how to address these problems or at least make people feel more at home with the guild so they will stick with it?
Thanks,
A concerned officer
Hi, ACO. Your members seem to have concerns about you and the other officers, and you seem to have concerns about them. You say you're "on the brink."
My question to you is this: Besides recruiting, what are you doing about it? Are you talking to your players? Are you asking them if three days per week is too much to handle? Are you aggressively addressing scheduling issues? Are you actively and constructively communicating about mistakes that cause a 3-hour wipe-athon on Thorim? Are you explaining your loot system clearly so people understand it and feel comfortable with it? Are you offering to have a dialogue about other possible loot systems that everyone can agree on? Is every conversation among the officers, even those having nothing to do with guild business, held in /o chat instead of /g?
I'm sure you and your fellow founding members are all on the same page, but that doesn't mean the rest of the guild is. In fact, it sounds like there's a pretty major disconnect between the founders and the players you recruited and geared up. I'm not saying you have to change all your policies to suit them, but you've got to reach out to them somehow. Hear them out. Maybe they'll have good ideas. Maybe they won't. Either way, they'll feel like someone at the top is listening to them, and that's the most important part.
It's not fun to be part of a guild where you feel like you're just along for the ride. Players can put up with it while the ride is smooth. If things get bumpy, and your members don't seem to have a say in the course that's been chosen, they may get off the bus at the next stop.
As far as your raids go, like I've said, summer is tough. Sometimes you have to look outside the guild for help. PUG players can be a disaster, but considering the amount of info you can call up from the Armory about a potential raider, it's becoming less of a risk. Plus, if you're recruiting, you might find some diamonds in the rough, or a small guild that wants to form an alliance with you. Two or three PUG players probably aren't going to break your raid, and it's better than sending your members back to Dalaran empty-handed.
It's also possible that, since you've been pushing so hard after 3.1, some of your players might need a break. Consider taking a week off to regroup. Set some goals for when you return so your players have motivation to come back. Talk to players about their own goals, too.
If any of your issues are gear related, you and every other guild will get a big injection of loot in a few weeks when Conquest badges start dropping from everything.
A final question for you: Have you considered dropping down to 10-player raids? It sounds like you have an incredible core of players who are all good friends. If you don't want to deal with the issues that are being raised by your recruits, if bridging the gap is too difficult or it's just too late to make a difference, you might be better off raiding with the players you already know and like.
Sure, the loot's not as good, class balance plays a bigger role, and individual mistakes are magnified. But you might find out that you have more fun when it's just you and your friends filling up the slots. I'm not saying you definitely should. It's just an alternative if things go downhill.
Based on what you've written, I'd say your biggest problems are social ones. When the officers are all friends, it's easy to stay hidden away among your inner circle. That habit can lead to a clique mentality, and an officer clique can ruin a guild. Communication has to go both ways if you want to foster a healthy social environment. And that leads to a more comfortable raiding environment, for both officers and members.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Ardy Jul 20th 2009 11:11AM
Fi....no i wont :)
The same thing happened with my previous guild =[
it ended up the guild disbanded and the officers migrated to another server.
good luck :)
Kousoku Jul 20th 2009 12:43PM
Aye, good luck. My guild is small but very cohesive--we're okay with primarily doing 10-man, though we're pushing the 10-man number pretty hard (for now, at least), usually with 12-15 people signed up a night.
I do wish Blizz would implement some number -other- than 10 and 25. There's a pretty big gap in there, and it always sucks to have to exclude people because of that magical number 10.
A Concerned Officer Jul 20th 2009 11:43AM
Thanks for the input Scott!
We have indeed implemented many of these suggestions on our own. We did an extensive explanation of how we do loot both on the forums and in game opening the floor for discussion if people had suggestions or concerns. We are also doing a "one on one" with all members of the guild between the glead and each member of the guild where they can bring up any concerns which are then brought up to the rest of the officers. All of the officers decisions are explained in /g and we are trying to involve the members more. For raid mistakes we are trying to call people out and offer them advice to correct it. Sometimes this advice is ignored and sometimes everyone in the raid is doing so poorly that it seems to be a moot point, but sometimes people improve. We are also trying to build guild cohesion by getting the various groups (tanks, healers, dps) to interact more with each other to increase their level of play and do stuff together on off nights.
It seemed to be going well, but a miserable week last week (where even our good players were being bad) followed by Ulduar being down one week of the night, killing any momentum we had, has put us back in a dicey position for this week. Hopefully we can smooth it out (we got lucky with apps and pulled in a few new people for next week), but if not we have considered dropping down to a 10 man guild. It has been in the back of our minds for awhile and that may end up just being the case.
Once again thanks for the advice!
AoC
Fuseitana Jul 20th 2009 12:34PM
A former guild I was in used the loot council system because we took a vote and that system won, it helped cause the complete breakup of the guild. Loot council is guaranteed to foster suspicion and mistrust. Add that to the cliquey environment you mentioned and you've got a death warrant for your guild.
You have to get rid of one of those two problems and since the cliques are inevitable with the manner of your founding - it better be the loot council that goes.
Neirin Jul 20th 2009 2:58PM
All loot council systems cause mistrust of some sort, you're never going to escape loot drama (see: Guildwatch). What has worked well for guilds I've raided with is a loot council where, rather than simply picking who gets the item, they select a pool of people who then roll for it. Generally it ends up working out that everyone feels they at least have some sort of shot at loot.
There's something to be said for giving loot to your most active raiders though. Giving that awesome Hodir hard-mode staff to someone who goes inactive for months at a time will leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth. Rather than favoritism, the loot council is usually just trying to get the most benefit possible for the guild.
Oomer Jul 23rd 2009 2:10AM
Get rid of your loot council as soon as you can. Nothing good ever came from a loot council decision.
Go with EPGP or some other completely neutral system based on math. If a player is mad at the system, that's fine. If a player is mad at officers, that's bad.
Treason Jul 20th 2009 11:43AM
>We can never field full raids for 3 days a week and often have to go with offspec healers and 22-23 people one night of the week.
Recruit more people. Simple as that. Give preference for signups to those who most recently came. If people can't show, their spots will be rarer.
> Some other nights are just bad nights; we go from one shotting Thorim one week to spending 3 hours on him the next.
This is true for everyone
>There is little guild cohesion and people view the original members of the guild as an exclusive clique who have priorty on loot council (which they don't).
Then don't use loot council. This is ALWAYS a problem with loot council.
Fair, but somewhat random distribution for 25 mans (but puggers/fillin's are happy to join your raids): http://www.wowwiki.com/Dual_Token_Loot_System
Fair, but shards small upgrades (and scares away fill ins): http://code.google.com/p/epgp/
Fair, but lots of math (and scares away fill ins): http://www.wowwiki.com/Ni_Karma
>There are also some key problem members or just bad players
Everyone has them. Deal with them well, you win the hearts of everyone though. Deal with them poorly, bye bye guild.
>recruiting hard on the forums and in game but the few apps we get are people in mostly 5-man gear which we can't take to Ulduar with us.
How are you recruiting? Sounds like you're doing it wrong.
If you want geared raiders, recruit by raiding. Run ulduar 10's and keep 3-4 slots for raiders to evaluate for coming into the guild. People who are geared enough to raid ulduar 10 will succeed, get in, and accentuate your 25 man team. People who are not geared well enough, will either shine enough you want them anyways, or will not get in. Don't spam trade, raid raid raid, heroic heroics heroics. Get a few people working on glory of the hero, and glory of the raider, spam THOSE in trade. Those will get geared people capable of doing hard content.
>To me it feels like a guild on the brink and I hold my breath every time before we raid regardless of the amazing progress we have made. Do you have any suggestions on how to address these problems or at least make people feel more at home with the guild so they will stick with it?
You're not on the brink. A couple people may be on the brink (yet another reason you need a lot more recruitment), but once you get up to 28-29 raiders, your 25 man team will be solid every week.
Additionally REALLY get away from that loot scheme. You are shooting yourself in the foot with it.
w2o1 Jul 20th 2009 12:00PM
Gotta agree with Treason, I was in the top guild on Ei----- for nearly three years and we used loot council. People come and go because of it, because they can't see themselves gaining any loot preference throughout the raids. Swap the loot system and recruit more people. As for your problem players / general bads, boot them, they have it coming eventually anyways. I have recently quit wow partially because of the ease of the content and partly because of the insane raid schedule, post me an email or link to your guild's recruit spam, I may be interested in coming back if the times are right. -Peace
Seamus Jul 20th 2009 12:03PM
Seems like a pretty common situation. My guild has also had similar problems: core group of "clique"-ish members, most of them Officers; undergeared players being carried through Naxx; serious gear and skill check in Ulduar; the malaise of summer. We had a core group quit the game and the ones who are left are pugging half our raids these days. /sigh
Sean Jul 20th 2009 12:07PM
My guild has gone through the same thing, except we never even made it to Ulduar. We had a relatively solid, reliable group that was close to finishing Naxx every week, but after we moved to our own guild everyone changed. We have guildies who are plotting, backstabbing, and refusing to do the simplest thing (like DPS instead of tank for one quarter of Naxx after another guildie PAID FOR HIS DUAL SPEC).
Even the officers were plotting to take over guild lead by mentioning every little mistake or every time that REAL LIFE kept her from showing up. Our guild is pretty much done until 3.2, and even then it'll be just doing heroics to get Emblem of Conquest gear.
Bottom line, do what you can to keep the guild going, but if it looks like a lost cause just move on.
Spookie Jul 20th 2009 12:08PM
To reinforce what everyone else said. Regardless of progress if a guild is using loot council I won't join them. I know it will cost me in the short term. I'll have to spend longer killing mimron on his hard mode because the guild I joined is that bit worse than the best on the realm. But two months down the line when the loot council guild has disbanded we'll have our pick of it's players to storm through to Algalon.
Loot council is a fast track to drama, fights and /gdisbands
Tridus Jul 20th 2009 12:09PM
"We keep pushing recruiting hard on the forums and in game but the few apps we get are people in mostly 5-man gear which we can't take to Ulduar with us."
Technically, you can take them. On some fights they won't be very useful, but on other fights they will be. For the most part in Ulduar, subpar DPS is still better then an empty slot (which is zero DPS).
if you were dealing with Archimonde where deaths wipe the raid, sure. But if someone dies halfway through Hodir due to low stamina on their 5 man gear and the slot was otherwise empty, you're still ahead by having them for the first half of the fight then by having nobody.
Druid Jul 20th 2009 12:16PM
I'm the GM of an "old" guild - 2 years or so now - and we use a weird /roll loot council hybrid system. At some point my normally no loot drama guild got concerned about loot. There were some good reasons for their concern - so I started keeping a list on the guild forums of who got what in each raid. It'd have the raid day, the raid, the people who got loot, whether they'd tried to pass it to other people, whether we'd forced them to take it. I used some addon I can't remember to track it.
At the bottom of the list I kept tallies -- Sam = 4; George = 3. I also kept tallies of non-main spec loot on another list.
It became obvious after a few weeks - the loot balances out. The hybrids (and our rarer classes like shammies) get more off-spec just out of random chance. People who were in all raids got more loot just because they are there.
I did this for a few months and all concerns stopped. People who complained I sent to the list. The list showed that it balanced.
if your list doesn't show it balanced then maybe they're right. But I'm guessing it will show balance.
Maybe it's because I'm an academic, but logitudinal evidence wins the day!
Birdfall Jul 20th 2009 12:19PM
My guild pugs the last few spots in 25s and we do it effectively:
--Let the behavior rules and loot rules be known up front.
--Let pugs know that bad behavior results in an automatic kick from the raid, no warnings.
--If pugs get loot and leave even though the raid isn't over, even if they've behaved themselves, they don't get invited back ever.
--If pugs make a good impression, they do get invited back.
--Finally, our guild has a blacklist forum where members can complain about bad pugs or talk up the ones they liked.
We've actually formed a bit of an alliance with three other specific (nice/competent) guilds, and they get the first shoutouts when we're ready to fill in our 25s. They know when we go and their members get along with us. We even got a few members from one of them (not poached, b/c poaching is evil) when they needed to make a change, and we're still on friendly terms.
thebvp Jul 20th 2009 12:39PM
You don't want to treat pugs like second class citizens, however. I think it might be a bit harsh to hold them to staying for the entire raid, while guild members can leave whenever they please. What if they have a serious issue they had to tend to? Like if they had to go to the emergency room or something? Would they not be allowed back?
You might be short-changing yourself some really decent raiders in this case.
My number #1 rule for raiding, which applies to both guildies and pugs: Don't be an idiot. Really, that's the only rule you need.
Birdfall Jul 20th 2009 12:58PM
If someone gets a piece of loot and leaves immediately, it's pretty obvious where their head's at. If they say "baby crying" or "bleeding" we obviously wouldn't be jerks about it. Also, in most real emergencies, you don't bother to leave group and hearth. If there's time to leave group, there's time to give a responsible reason.
99% of the time, raidquit with no message means it's just someone being a greedy jerkface.
Birdfall Jul 20th 2009 1:07PM
"guild members can leave whenever they please"
Did I say that?
Guild members can leave, but they give a reason. It's expected of members and it's expected of pugs, simply because it's good manners. We care about that more than about skill.
Caring more about getting through a raid than how people treat each other is the antithesis of what we're about: http://wowfamilybusiness.blogspot.com/
satyr69 Jul 21st 2009 8:52AM
I whole heartedly agree with this and have been working to get people to do this more on our server.
The biggest problem about adding pug people to a raid is how to give them loot while maintaining or using an existing loot system.
--> Looking for creative suggestions here please !!
For loot we use DKP. 1 dkp at beginning of raid, 1 dkp at end of raid.
Need items go to highest dkp and cost half of your dkp. Greed items get rolled for and cost 1 dkp. This works extremely well.
On top of this we use a ranking system. Trial --> member --> raider.
Raider requires attendence to 8 out of the last 10 raids. Attendence is being at the raid ready to go at start time, even if they dont end up getting selected.
Loot is done by rank first then dkp. So a raider needing beats a member needing.
This makes it attractive to people to attend raids to get to raider rank.
Summer is hard for guilds and guild masters. Here are my 2 constructive tips for guild masters. First, relax. The goal is to get more active raiders, not to start gkicking the guild members who havent shown up for a bit. Second, look at how you can fill the last few spots with friends of guild members etc. rather then cancelling raids.
Nothing annoys players more then turning up and having a 25 man raid cancelled because of having 22 people.
Happy raiding !!
Birdfall Jul 21st 2009 12:19PM
We have specific Sunday 25-man runs and every other run of the week is 10-man unless we have enough signatures for 25. Also, consider breaking into 2 10-mans if your 25 doesn't get together. Just have rosters set up beforehand and let people know that's the backup plan (people get grouchy when they don't expect things to change and then they do). Even consider letting people bring alts. Everyone likes a fun alt run!
For the 25-man we have to pug, we don't use DKP. We have /rolls with a 2 loot minimum per person, no penalties.
Hierarchy of rolls:
/roll main spec
/roll off spec
/roll disenchant
Quark1020 Jul 20th 2009 12:36PM
Probably the only real issue for the guild is the loot council. Even if the officers are doing their council with intelligence and the utmost fairness, to those who don't get anything, they will feel cheated. That just seems to be how it is. I never been in a guild with loot council as the main form of loot distribution. Mine uses a plain main spec roll with a loot council only as a backup. There's never been a need to use it, we're very cool with each other.
Other than that, the article pretty much answered everything fairly well. Communication is the most important thing here.