Officers' Quarters: On the brink

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
A few weeks ago, I talked about the difficulty of maintaining an active raiding schedule all summer long -- and what you can do about it. This week's e-mail is from yet another victim of the summer raiding slump, but his guild has some other issues going on here, too.
Hey Scott,
I'm an officer of a relatively new raiding guild (3-4 months old). We formed a few weeks before 3.1 and built the guild up from almost nothing besides the group of friends we had. The core group started out almost in Best in Slot gear but most of the people we recruited were undergeared so we ended up having to run Naxx for almost a month after 3.1 before we had the gear to really push Ulduar. That being said we have done phenomenally well in the time we have spent in Ulduar. We have downed all the watchers[. . . .] We consider ourselves way ahead of where we should be for such a young guild.
However we seem to have numerous problems.
We can never field full raids for 3 days a week and often have to go with offspec healers and 22-23 people one night of the week. This leads to times when we have to call raids on raid nights because not enough people show up. Some other nights are just bad nights; we go from one shotting Thorim one week to spending 3 hours on him the next.
This leads to a very tense feeling in the guild since we never seem to know how good we will do; and some of the members that I've talked to are upset with the guild even with our great progress. There is little guild cohesion and people view the original members of the guild as an exclusive clique who have priorty on loot council (which they don't). There are also some key problem members or just bad players[. . . .] We keep pushing recruiting hard on the forums and in game but the few apps we get are people in mostly 5-man gear which we can't take to Ulduar with us.
To me it feels like a guild on the brink and I hold my breath every time before we raid regardless of the amazing progress we have made. Do you have any suggestions on how to address these problems or at least make people feel more at home with the guild so they will stick with it?
Thanks,
A concerned officer
Hi, ACO. Your members seem to have concerns about you and the other officers, and you seem to have concerns about them. You say you're "on the brink."
My question to you is this: Besides recruiting, what are you doing about it? Are you talking to your players? Are you asking them if three days per week is too much to handle? Are you aggressively addressing scheduling issues? Are you actively and constructively communicating about mistakes that cause a 3-hour wipe-athon on Thorim? Are you explaining your loot system clearly so people understand it and feel comfortable with it? Are you offering to have a dialogue about other possible loot systems that everyone can agree on? Is every conversation among the officers, even those having nothing to do with guild business, held in /o chat instead of /g?
I'm sure you and your fellow founding members are all on the same page, but that doesn't mean the rest of the guild is. In fact, it sounds like there's a pretty major disconnect between the founders and the players you recruited and geared up. I'm not saying you have to change all your policies to suit them, but you've got to reach out to them somehow. Hear them out. Maybe they'll have good ideas. Maybe they won't. Either way, they'll feel like someone at the top is listening to them, and that's the most important part.
It's not fun to be part of a guild where you feel like you're just along for the ride. Players can put up with it while the ride is smooth. If things get bumpy, and your members don't seem to have a say in the course that's been chosen, they may get off the bus at the next stop.
As far as your raids go, like I've said, summer is tough. Sometimes you have to look outside the guild for help. PUG players can be a disaster, but considering the amount of info you can call up from the Armory about a potential raider, it's becoming less of a risk. Plus, if you're recruiting, you might find some diamonds in the rough, or a small guild that wants to form an alliance with you. Two or three PUG players probably aren't going to break your raid, and it's better than sending your members back to Dalaran empty-handed.
It's also possible that, since you've been pushing so hard after 3.1, some of your players might need a break. Consider taking a week off to regroup. Set some goals for when you return so your players have motivation to come back. Talk to players about their own goals, too.
If any of your issues are gear related, you and every other guild will get a big injection of loot in a few weeks when Conquest badges start dropping from everything.
A final question for you: Have you considered dropping down to 10-player raids? It sounds like you have an incredible core of players who are all good friends. If you don't want to deal with the issues that are being raised by your recruits, if bridging the gap is too difficult or it's just too late to make a difference, you might be better off raiding with the players you already know and like.
Sure, the loot's not as good, class balance plays a bigger role, and individual mistakes are magnified. But you might find out that you have more fun when it's just you and your friends filling up the slots. I'm not saying you definitely should. It's just an alternative if things go downhill.
Based on what you've written, I'd say your biggest problems are social ones. When the officers are all friends, it's easy to stay hidden away among your inner circle. That habit can lead to a clique mentality, and an officer clique can ruin a guild. Communication has to go both ways if you want to foster a healthy social environment. And that leads to a more comfortable raiding environment, for both officers and members.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Tridus Jul 20th 2009 12:51PM
Loot council only works with mature people who all trust the loot council to be fair. As soon as you either have immature people, or people who don't trust the loot council for any reason, the whole thing collapses.
It's just not a good system for most guilds.
Paul Forget Jul 20th 2009 12:39PM
I find that the easiest way to avoid this level of guild drama and tension is just to recruit slowly. Sounds like you did a massive recruitment drive to get up to 25 mans right away in 3.1, and so you never had a chance to really bond with the new people you were bringing in, because there were so many. My guild is still in the process of getting in to 25 mans. In the past 2 months we've gone from 11 main members to 22-24. We're on the verge of being able to do 25 mans as a guild. It took forever, and was quite frankly a little frustrating. But the positive side of it is that every member of the guild is comfortable with each other, and there is a lot of positive interaction among members. Plus, we've downed almost all the 10 man hard modes in the meantime!
If your priority is a stable, tight-knit guild, then rushing into 25s for the better gear isn't always the best option.
edward Jul 20th 2009 12:48PM
Stop the in-jokes that only you and your friends know while everyone else is listening, it auto alienates. And its obviously not funny.
If you and your friends try to hold each other up too much, it makes you look weak and that you *will* play favourites. Don't make it a matter of us or them, you need these "other people".
Don't have officers talk to everyone about their opinions, its BS, since you cannot possibly obey everyone's wishes, and makes you look like a patronising group of asses eventually, if not already. It also makes you seem like you know nothing about running a guild, people lose confidence and start thinking about leaving.
Do not think about becoming a 10 man guild, if you think this, you already have a clique. Its negative and will only make you think you don't really need anyone outside this clique of yours. At the least, make two 10 mans and go from there.
Recruiting is hard, don't be desperate and recruit anyone, try for quality. No one's perfect, but some things are obvious.
I gotta go to bed!
mibluvr13 Jul 20th 2009 12:48PM
I was in a guild VERY similar to this for a few months (from its inception to its death) and, in my opinion, was in the "best in slot" group who had to raid with undergeared people in order to fill slots, if we could even fill a raid.
I have no advice to offer though. It eventually exploded in drama and broke off into other guilds that all failed miserably. The well geared people apped for higher guilds and to my knowledge, I'm one of maybe four that still raids.
MasterAsh Jul 20th 2009 3:30PM
I can totally relate. I'm among the top (if not THE top) DPS in my guild. For the last 3-4 months, I've participated in our 25-man Naxx runs ONLY to fill a slot so other people can get gear. And I did this with the impression that the faster they geared up, the faster they would participate in progression raids.
Except, our progression raids are primarily 10-man and scheduled on Tue-Thur, and these members I'm helping simply don't sign up, partially due to unavailability and partially due to feeling they won't get in the raid anyway. After officers, there's usually only about 2-3 slots left for others in a 10-man. At the start of Ulduar, we had tried to run two 10-mans, but people either still wouldn't sign up or resented being on the "B-team," even with the GM trying to make the teams as even in skill as possible.
We're currently back to running 2 10s, but I feel the damage has already been done with us looking to not down Yogg at all until after 3.2. . .Morale's pretty low.
Getting back to relating: A couple of weeks ago, I choose not to sign for the weekend's scheduled 25-man Naxx or Ulduar. At that point, I'd been working 10-hour shifts for 6 of the previous 8 weeks, as well as missed a lot of sleep having appointments to make some mornings out of town. My GM asked about me not signing, surprised I didn't want to even do the Ulduar. I told her I was feeling wiped and needed a break; she already knew the details. I also told her how weary I was getting of running 25s with so many pick-ups. She said okay, but then felt the need to remind me that the pick-ups were a necessary evil to do 25s and that every guild member that doesn't show up just sets us back from having full guild runs. . .
. . .I almost came undone. I'd been filling slots simply for the sake of filling a slot for months on end, and the one weekend I choose not to, she throws that at me. It's like "Yeah, I know. . .why do you think I've been signing up for the last several months?!"
Miri Jul 20th 2009 12:53PM
Here's my thoughts on the matter...
1. Several were BiS prior to recruitment of people who needed gear from Naxx.
This can be a big problem--I was BiS when my previous guild started recruiting people in greens and who had recently hit 80 in order to push ourselves through 25 man content (Naxx was all there was at the time). As a healer, it was a minor annoyance, but as a player, I was a lot more frustrated that my guild management didn't say "Heroics first, then Naxx" or even say "10-man Naxx first." Instead they were hard-headed and pushed into the 25-man runs--we couldn't down several of the bosses--the DPS wasn't strong enough, heck, we hadn't even evaluated people's play styles to see if they were even ready to raid.
Make sure the BiS people are agreeable to assist under geared people. If they are fixated on their next epic, then they will probably not be interested in building a raid team from the ground up. Make sure they realize the amount of time needed to achieve a solid team--it's a lot of heroics, a lot of patience, and usually a lot of gear recommendations. I never had an issue healing a heroic--I have 1 of everything, so I'm interested in learning, and teaching, to assist guildies in being the best they can be (which is what you hope for in a raid guild). If people aren't willing to set aside their wants/desires for shiny epics, you will be facing a long road.
2. Can't field raids 3 nights a week.
I raided 4 nights a week in BC, for progression content. In all honesty, I probably raided 5-6 nights week--we farmed Kara for badges, ran ZA for minor upgrades and the timer loot, and then did progression Mon-Thurs. I was blessed with a raid team who wanted to down bosses, and who were willing to strive to achieve the best performance. I've noticed raid expectations (both of raiders willing to take the wipes, and RLs willing to teach the fights) in Wrath are a bit off the wall. It's not asking too much to have people watch videos of the fights, but expecting a PUG (or even a new raid) to go off without a hitch is asking for too much. People now classify bosses on "farm" status after one downing--With 4 Vashj kills in BC, I still didn't consider it on farm--people in Wrath are too quick to jump the gun and rate/rank everyone based on gear and not skill.
Make sure your guildies understand what is expected of them each raid night. Make sure they understand they are supposed to come supplied/repaired/energized. Offer a bonus if you down a boss within a specific number of attempts. Make it FUN!
If people still seem to be disinterested, poll your raiding population--find out if other nights are better, let them (privately) vent to guild management about their issues with making the raids. Don't single people out with their feedback--the best thing that guild management can do is act on what they are told.
3. "...There is little guild cohesion and people view the original members of the guild as an exclusive clique..."
Does the main foundation of the guild always "hang out" together? Do they sit in an access controlled channel in vent? Why are people having that perception?
I always had an open door policy--the only time I sat in my private channel was if I was working (I WFH, but regularly sat in WoW and in vent)--people could drop in and chat with me--just because I managed the finances, the people, and every other aspect of the guild, didn't mean I wasn't on good terms with about 98% of the members. Make sure the original members are spending time with other members, helping other members out. It sucks if someone in your guild wants to do the Heroic daily and the original members only run it together every day. Make sure it doesn't appear that you are playing favorites. Especially if it can help out another guild member.
Some people will always be whiny and demanding--if you can determine that you are doing practically everything possible to make someone happy and they still complain, then it might be time for the "group dynamic and you not matching" discussion--it's not a fun discussion, but you never know, your guild might thank you for it!
4. "....There are also some key problem members or just bad players..."
RED ALERT! A raiding guild doesn't need the drama or the people who don't want to learn how to play their class. I run the "one warning" rule. You'll be asked once, and only once, to drop the drama. If you can't abide by that, I'll give you the option to leave on your own. If you won't, I will forcefully remove you. I had one member go absolutely NUTS in a guild meeting in vent. Our RL chose to remove that player from the raid that evening to reduce the tension, and the officers and I spoke after the raid and determined it would be best for all if we asked him to leave. I spoke with him the next morning and explained that we had a personality conflict with him in the guild and that we were giving him the chance to leave on his own, no explanation required. He chose to jump onto his main and start blasting guild management in /gchat. I had already organized a list of his alts, and I removed his main from the guild and another officer removed all the alts. Aside from the shock of seeing the guild's first /gkick in progress, the guild members who were online were very appreciative that guild management decided to remove the player. Many of them were in the guild meeting the night before and were in shock as to what he did. All feedback we received was supportive of our decision. If you started to clean house, I bet you'd be surprised at how happy it would make your members.
Bad players are another saga. I would recommend trying to team them up with a mentor--another person in the guild who can help them. Determine if they are willing to be helped. If they don't want help, then have the RL inform them that if they don't get better, they will be benched. A person who has a strong desire to raid will step up to the plate and try their best. Someone who just wants to be carried won't do crap. Use that to decide whether or not they need to stay or go.
FWIW, my guild was a top 20 server guild in TBC before we broke apart. It can happen to any guild--just make sure that you aren't poisoning yourself with management flaws and members who are walking all over you.
JDawg Jul 20th 2009 12:54PM
I joined a fully established guild about two months ago, that had been around for years, that has always used loot council. I made friends with my section officer, got geared up, and then usurped his officer spot when he began missing raids. Currently only Yogg stands in our way, and there is no brink in sight.
Loot council might not be "fair" in a merit-based sort of way, but if you're reasonably intelligent and are able to socially interact with people, attend raids, and do reasonably well on meters then the world is your oyster.
Just thought I'd offer that as proof, because:
If you're not giving loot to BAD people, and they quit, so what?
Recruitment seems to be your issue, not loot distribution.
Randomized loot systems cater to scrubs.
codyfahringer0 Jul 20th 2009 1:26PM
My guild used the loot council system for quite some time and then we started losing people because the fact that loot coucil concerns most of the officers over the newer players, most new people in the guild probably will think that you are overlooking them
My guild went from Loot Council to EPGP this loot system is extermely nice and fair, some people may think its dkp but its not you get points from showing up to raids on time and doing stuff for the guild, like helping people out, putting stuff in the guild bank, and helping gear newer players, we only use this system for progression purposes since 10 man naxx and 10 man ulduar and 25 man naxx usually just open roll.
over all my guild has been using this system for about 2 months now and it helps motivate people to come raiding, since we implimented this loot system we have had 31 signups for raids and every single one of them showing up and when we did loot council we had maybe 20 signups and only 17 showing up
this is a good loot system if anybody wants to try it out, you can find it at cursegaming.com
Kaawn Jul 20th 2009 1:35PM
If you ask me, it feels like there are a lot of new people raiding since LK who've never raided before, certainly not in a more "hard core" raiding guild. They don't seem to care if an upgrade is better for one person or another, or even if some piece of loots stats make any sense for their class or BiS for another. It's chaos, I tell ya. And most frustrating.
The system I like the best is: people research what gear/weapons their toons should strive for, BiS and other usable drops while waiting for a BiS. Listed on the guilds website, monitored by the officers and/or Class Leaders, and for -all- to see.
When something drops that more then one person can use (ie. is on their loot list and approved by officers/class leaders), players link what they are upgrading. Whoever needs the upgrade more gets the drop. If it's equal, then the players roll for it.
We are supposed to be team members, and a good team member wants what's best for the team, not for themselves. If the team is bettered, then everyone prospers and will eventually get the best gear they need in a timely manner.
Why is it that most of these new raiders can't seem to get that?
Quark1020 Jul 20th 2009 3:13PM
Hear Hear!
Treason Jul 20th 2009 4:40PM
This makes highly geared people not get loot.
This is a bad thing. Gear is synergistic to a point. Tossing more spellpower on a hitcapped lock does more dmg than tossing it on a non-hitcapped lock, all other things equal, etc. Tossing more spellpower on a mage with more spellpower causes more dmg than one with less spellpower.
Additionally, it says: You guys who have nice gear, which you may have gotten through extrordinary effort, we don't care, you get no reward.
thebvp Jul 20th 2009 1:40PM
Birdfall- oh, I agree, that makes sense.
The way you phrased your response, it sounded as if you were holding pugs to stay for the entire raid, but did not care if your guildmates came and went.
As someone who pugs regularly, I've run into some pretty obnoxious guilds with even more obnoxious rules regarding pugs. For example, I've had guilds who would give pugs second class priority on all loot, or held us up to standards (like failing the safety dance on Heigan = pug boot, but not a boot for guildies) that they do not hold for their own members. The worst is probably the random boot so a guildie can get in on a fresh run, when you've just started a fresh instance, effectively locking you out of an entire 25 man raid for a week.
Guilds who pug often operate under the presumption that the pug is just along for the ride and that they are making loot possible for said pugger, when, from my perspective, the opposite is true (especially because I'm a healer). I make loot possible for them.
Anyway, it is off-topic, but pugs need to be treated with exactly the same respect as everyone else. There are some really good, skilled players who pug, and you're only short changing yourself if you treat them poorly.
Rob Jul 20th 2009 3:13PM
Couldn't agree more with this. Guilds that PUG are really helping themselves out in two ways: 1) They show the 'world' what their guild is like, and 2) They fill a crucial spot. For good guilds, its a way to show the server that this is a great guild to get into, because not only are they progressing, but are friendly and skilled. I always felt honored on my old guild, (we were pretty progressed at the time) when a random PUGer asked what our guild was like and if they could join. To me that says there is something valuable in our guild.
Guilds that are two-faced regarding their PUG rules are really just shooting themselves in the foot. Especially those who demand X dps for damage classe PUGs, then go in with bad tanks/heals.
Haiku-Prince Jul 20th 2009 1:44PM
I would rather call two Ulduar 10mans during the summer, than postponing, or calling the night on 25mans.
On the other hand, pugging in the summertime can lead to new recruits.
For gearing the new members, why don“t you bring up the alts of your core raiders?
Less equip wasted and more functional raiding chars instead off malequipped off-specs.
When a Tank is missing due to RL issues-take the well equipped tank instead of the Ret-pally who refuses to take a shield even in off-spec!
This might help getting the core of your guild socialize more with the recruits since they will both want equip from old Naxx (even though I might stress that the first Equip should have a slightly higher significance than alts/twinks...).
good luck
H
Jay Jul 20th 2009 2:00PM
1. Get rid of the Loot Council. It's subjective, you have people in the guild that don't trust you, and when you try to explain your decision-making process the people that don't trust you DON'T TRUST YOU. DKP or SK are objective and if you drop the subjective system for an objective system, those people that don't trust you, they might start to reconsider...
2. If your GL is going to guild members to have one-on-one discussions as a formal part of solving your issues that tells me one thing: Your officers haven't gotten to know anyone in the guild. You have a clique that is closed to the rest of the guild and you're making the job of leading far more difficult than it has to be. Everyone of your officers and founding members has to make a real effort to make real relationships with the rest of the guild. If you're running a 5 man and all 5 are officers, you're wrong. If you're sitting there on an off night watching people LFG/LFM in guild chat not offering to go because you don't need anything there, you're wrong. If you have a choice to fill out a slot in your 5 man between an officer and a guild member and you take the officer, you're wrong. If you're online farming mats and you aren't actively engaging non-officers in /g and vent, you're wrong. If all your chit-chat takes place in /o or a private "officer only" channel in vent, you're wrong. All your officers should be actively forcing themselves to engage with members of the guild. One idea: Dedicate one non-raiding night a week to building relationships in the guild. This isn't something you need to announce to the entire guild, just pick a non-raid night when you know you tend to have a lot of people online and tell your officers, "On this night I'd like all of you to play for a couple of hours and make an effort to play or talk with guild members that are not officers/founders." Play alts with guild members, run alts through dungeons or group quests, farm but sit in a public channel in vent talking with someone that's not an officer, PvP with non-officers, have fun chatting with the guild in /g. For one or two hours that night every week, go out of your way to expand the circle of people you socialize with in game. If all your officers make a real effort at this, the mood of your guild will pick up, recruiting will become easier, your guild will become more cohesive, people will try harder to attend raids (because they've made friends they don't want to let down).
Maximize Jul 21st 2009 6:03PM
I have seen this problem in numerous guilds. There are quite a few things you can do, but it will take some effort on the part of yourself and the officers. And it may take a few sacrifices.
The problem of being 2-3 short of a full raid has an obvious solution. Recruit. A guild only gets so many members by having a website with an application section. Actively look for good players in Naxx, EoE, and OS. Ask them to apply. Spam a little in trade chat. Put your guild's name out there.
If you have downed content and are still having trouble with it, it could be a number of things. My guess is that since you are so short on attendance you have to take EVERYONE who's online. Most of the time that means a sorry raid composition and including people who just don't perform. That brings me back to recruiting. Once you have 10-20 more active players, you can focus more on which classes/specs will help the raid, and you will not be forced to bring certain people JUST because there was nobody else.
Lastly, get serious in your raids. I don't mean you have to be a jerk. But make people pop flasks, gem/enchant their gear correctly, and work on their characters outside of the specified hours of the weekly raids.
Good luck with your guild.
Dmom Jul 20th 2009 2:32PM
If all of the officers are from your original "clic," have you considering creating an officer position for someone not in this group? There are always many jobs to do, and I'll bet that opening up a position for an "outsider" might help.
MasterAsh Jul 20th 2009 3:11PM
Wow. . .This reminds me so much of my guild it's scary. . .
Except, we haven't even had your progress of clearing the watchers. . .And some nights, we're lucky to have at least 15 guild members online for a scheduled 25-man. In fact, our Naxx last weekend wound up being called after six hours when we hit Thaddius. About 30-40 minutes of those six hours were spent on him, with the same people (including a guildie or two) failing the shifts.
Our biggest issue? Wanting to stay casual while expecting hardcore performance and participation. The middle ground approach hasn't worked for us.
brian Jul 20th 2009 4:35PM
10 man ulduar is not worth doing once you've tasted the loot from 25 man. Unless your group can do hard modes in 10 man the loot is terrible.
bregtann Jul 20th 2009 6:47PM
In the Soviet Union, Loot Council was state ideology.
Look where it got them.
Crap gear, angry people and a pretty major guild disband in the end.