The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Going Back To The Well
The Care and Feeding of Warriors is WoW.com's weekly column about all things clanky and rage-related. Matthew Rossi felt like using that old, old, lookit me in my bug shoulders from AQ40 screenshot. Yes, those are the Might legs. We can all look back and laugh now, sure. Back then it wasn't funny.Believe it or not, there is a method to this particular madness. Since Blizzard was so kind to go back and release more Q&A for warriors this week, I felt to some degree constrained to talk about the answers they gave (and the questions they answered, for that matter) and in going over the post, one particular passage brought me back to the beginning, so to speak. To the days of running MC, BWL and AQ, gearing up in anticipation of patch 1.11 and Naxxramas. Let's look at the particular exchange I'm referring to.
- Community Team: It appears that many players who enjoy the Warrior class for its damage aspects continue to feel that, without best in-slot items, their class's performance is very truncated.
- Q: Is this an issue that we have seen in the Warrior class? If so, do we have any plans to accommodate those players who do not have best in-slot items, while still keeping those with the very best equipment from being too powerful?
- A:This really just gets back to the way rage works, which is that damage leads to rage so you have to pick a point at which you balance warriors. High damage and high rage? Low damage and low rage? The way to fix it is to normalize rage even more so that you always get X rage per second regardless of gear. But once you always get X rage per second you essentially just have rogue energy. So, as with the previous question, we don't like the way it is working and want to change it but we don't have a perfect substitute in the can just yet.
Warriors damage output is tied to rage in a way that causes this issue at almost every single 'gear cap' that comes along in the game. At level 60, in the best epic DPS plate/mail/leather (these legs were particularly popular in the raids I attended) warrior DPS was constantly being retuned. Every time a new content patch with new items came out, warrior DPS had to be re-evaluated, which is what lead to the large rage normalization changes we talked about last week.
The problem is that it didn't really change the issue. There's an old saying that, roughly paraphrased, argues that men always prepare to fight the war they last fought - the Maginot line, for instance, would have been really effective if they could have teleported it back in time to World War I (and in truth, the Germans did get lucky on their assault on the Belgian fortifications but this isn't a column about WWII military strategy). Similarly, rage normalization was effective in rebalancing the damage output of warriors in the top gear from the original game's raid dungeons and had the unfortunate side effect of making warrior tanking harder in Burning Crusade until it was redressed in patch 2.1, but it didn't really counteract what would again start to happen once warriors began gearing up in Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Magitheridon (well, okay, Mag loot was pretty bad) and beyond to TK, SSC, Hyjal and BT.
Basically, what we saw at the end of the raiding cycle in BC was what we saw at the end of the raiding cycle before it: at the top end of raiding, with the best possible gear and a fight that allowed for rage to be both generated and openly utilized, warrior DPS gains were astonishing. This is in part due to the nature of the resource system that warriors utilize for their DPS - rage does not have a standard regeneration rage like energy does, does not decrease over time without replenishment and other mana restoration strategies, and is not tied to specific moves that generate it as runic power does but its tied directly to the warrior both in terms of his/her white damage output and in terms of incoming damage.
This means that, as a warriors gear gets better, not only does he do more damage with his basic attacks, not only does she miss less and crit more often and sees less dodges, but all of this generates rage. Therefore, her special attacks not only do more damage (because they, too, are made better by the better stats on new gear) but they are more readily accessible. The increased white damage creates more rage which creates more opportunity to do more special attacks, which are designed to do more damage, hit more targets, or so on.
Once a warrior hits the gear threshold that allows her or him to no longer fear rage starvation, the biggest concern will always be positioning. Ulduar, for instance, has very few fights that are warrior friendly. A warrior doing DPS wants more than anything not to move. In Naxx-10/25 (that is to say, the Lich King manifestation of the instance) the DPS warrior dream fights were Thaddius, Patchwerk and Loatheb. Of these three fights, Thaddius and Loatheb had particular gimmicks that benefited a DPS warrior (increased stacking damage buffs or a highly increased critical strike chance) that warriors especially enjoyed for the same reason that warriors gain doubly from increased stats on gear: the more white damage the warrior does, the more rage he generates, the more special attacks he can do. Patchwerk, while it contained no such buff, allowed the DPS warrior to park him/herself directly behind the mob and simply go berserk without worrying about positioning beyond possibly stepping into the ooze a few times to ensure that they weren't ever a target for Patchwerk's particular affections.
No amount of rage normalization has prevented this mechanic from functioning this way. It was designed to function this way. This is the essential core, the mystery of the warrior class. In short, this is what warriors have always done. If you say The way to fix it is to normalize rage even more so that you always get X rage per second regardless of gear then what you are saying is the way to fix it is to make warriors not be warriors anymore.
The trade off the warrior class has always accepted has been that they will be slaves to gear. That when leveling, when starting in five mans, when struggling to attain decent PvP gear the warrior would be weak. It's a trade off the other classes have always ignored, selectively blinded so that they only see the warrior in full epics bladestorming in their midst but forget the mounds of warriors in quest greens and crafted blues they effortlessly stunlocked, rooted, trapped, burned and blasted apart on their way to that meeting. Warriors have never forgotten. Warriors have gone to raids and bided their time, carefully assembling their gear sets (I wore bug shoulders) so that they could one day slap on all that DPS gear and suddenly turn the suppression room into an abattoir of mangled whelps on the way to Broodlord. No matter what happens, if you continue to increase stats on gear, eventually warriors will always hit that tipping point where they no longer have to worry about rage starvation. White damage will always hit the sweet spot where it is not only high enough on its own to be a decent portion of your DPS (especially for the modern, 2h dual wielding Titan's Grip warrior) but where it becomes a source of enough rage to unlock the real damage potential of the warrior's special attacks.
We see this in Ulduar now. Warrior DPS is artificially hampered by fights that are specifically designed to keep melee DPS on the move: of all the melee DPS, warriors are the most easily curbed by such fights, as not only is their white damage kept low, but this also keeps their rage generation stunted, which keeps their synergistic effect in check. On fights like Kologarn and XT -002 hard mode, suddenly warriors go from 10th on the DPS chart to near the top. When I see encounter design like this, and I read sentences that basically say "we want rage to act like mana" I see a design philosophy that has shifted a great deal from the idea that the strength of the warrior class was rage, and that it was a special, unique element of the class that was to be embraced.
This seems counter-productive to me. We already have Rogues, Death Knights, Retribution Paladins and Enhancement Shamans. Why do we want to make Warriors copies of any of them? Perhaps the change is that, in Lich King, Warriors are treated as a hybrid class while in the original game and Burning Crusade they were designed as a pure DPS class. Perhaps it's simply a desire on the design end to make everything work the same way, a desire that doesn't have room for the unique synergy and scaling of the warrior's rage mechanic. Perhaps it's the spectre that's haunted the class at every 'gear cap'. Perhaps it's the selective blindness of those who have never had to eat the limitations of gear in the same way warriors have and can never understand how many times that warrior in epics had to run back to his corpse or stand at a winged angel waiting before he had them.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Classes, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Forums






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Holgar Jul 25th 2009 2:18PM
I REALLY gotta say I think that if you turn rage into a consistantly generated stat you basically make all warriors into plate wearing rogues with no combo points......
Rage is what makes our class what it is. Take away our rage and we truely are nothing. With 3.2 I dual specced, I started gearing up as arms then switched to fury because my rage generation was SO crappy. Got a bunch of heroic and badge gear and then switched back to the EXACT same arms spec and glyph combo to do some casual arena with my friend.
PvP'd with that spec for a bit and Mortal Striked faces, tried out PvEing with it andhad next to no rage generation issues....... go figure.
Also as a WW2 history buff I have to STRONGLY approve of the Maginot line example.
Nick S Jul 25th 2009 10:26PM
I agree. Warriors need to be a Rage class.
That said, Rage does need some tweaking. I've thought it *might* work to add a talent that reads something like "every time you deal damage, you gain an additional 1/2/3/4/5 Rage points, but the damage of your special attacks is decreased by 1/2/3/4/5%." This would allow Warriors who live in fear of Rage starvation to generate significantly more Rage, and then drop the talent when their Rage situation improves to the point where the 5% damage decrease is an overall negative.
Alveredus Jul 26th 2009 5:06PM
Many warriors I've seen would rather be cooldown based anyway. I think the solution is to make rage into something other than fuel, a resource that is NOT necessarily "more is better". A stat that builds constantly while in combat, which has advantages associated with letting it build and disadvantages, meaning that you want LESS rage in some situations and more rage in others and you want to avoid a full rage bar at all costs.
Reposted from the Maul/heroic Strike Thread:
I have a solution but my solution factors into what I'd do with a rage overhaul.
The ideal, in some ways, to alleviate gearing issues with rage would be to make it more like energy, independent of how much you can take hits or how hard you hit. The problem is that makes it, well, into the same thing as Rogue energy.
Here's my rough idea for a new rage mechanic:
Rage steadily increases over time. As rage increases, attack speed goes down and crit chance goes up. When the rage bar is at full, you start taking a negative resilience debuff that stacks every second.
Instead of abilities COSTING rage, they VENT rage. The point of a rage bar is no longer to fuel abilities. There are tricks you can pull by letting your rage bar get high but there's added risk/tradeoff.
For PvE DPS, you would want to keep rage low to avoid getting crits that pull aggro. For PvP, the goal is to hit things to vent off the rage before it becomes a liability.
More desirable abilities would tend to have a lower rage "cost" because the ideal would generally be to vent more rage rather than less.
Rage Management would slow rage gain past the 50 mark and Endless Rage would increase the rage cap, allowing bigger crits. Prot would generate rage at a slower rate, being more "cool-headed". In place of traditional stance penalties would be simply that each stance generates rage at a different rate, with threat, mitigation and resilience bonuses for each.
Shouts would be increased in duration to regular length buffs but would increase your rate of rage gain for the buff's duration.
At this point, Heroic Strike and Maul would change mechanically from their traditional "rage dump" mechanics. They would have a low rage cost, which risks allowing your rage bar to get too high. Because of this, other abilities become more desirable unless your rage is already low. They might be okay towards the beginning of a fight but you have to start cycling them out of the rotation as your rage bar gets too high.
Hal Jul 25th 2009 2:22PM
I don't have a warrior, but I see the warriors on the tanking forum complain about rage starvation a lot. I suspect that when Blizzard says that they want rage to be more like mana, it's the tanks they have in mind. I'm not sure what kind of changes they would make that would prevent the problems warrior tanks experience while maintaining the distinctiveness of the class, but it's at least a comfort that the developers understand that the problem is out there.
Wither Jul 25th 2009 2:38PM
There seems to be two problems here:
1) The central rage mechanic - whether or not it works like energy / mana.
On this, who cares if it works like a rogue, that's a good system, as long as the abilities still make the warrior class very different, the mechanics can be very similar. What makes a warrior "warrior-esque" are the talents and spells not the mechanics.
2) DPS vs other classes.
Same old problem with every class, warriors want competitive DPS with other classes and yet those other classes a) don't wear plate, thus having poor damage mitigation b) can't tank. You can solve a) by giving other classes damage 'avoidance' abilities to make up for their armor limitations. Problem b) hybrid vs pure DPS classes, at the moment there is no penalty on DPS, tanking or healing for hybrids. It will stay this way until hybrids vastly outnumber other classes, then they'll probably be nerfed.
Shoryu Jul 25th 2009 2:57PM
@ Wither
"...at the moment there is no penalty on DPS, tanking or healing for hybrids. It will stay this way until hybrids vastly outnumber other classes, then they'll probably be nerfed."
You obviously do not play a Warrior. Im interested in this no "penalty" you talk of, because even in BiS gear a warrior DPS will not beat a feral, a rogue, a hunter, a loc, a DK, etc. 10% off the top dmg "penalty" on our TG because everyone complained our DPS was TOO good. Now we are on the bottom, and we still have no penalty? Hunters are the 3rd most popular class, right up there with DKs and Druids, and hunters can vastly out DPS us warriors even in similar gear. When you are DPSing, plate does not come into play. Will 20% dmg reduction save you from a 28k hit when your HP is at 23k? No it will not. And i can honestly say, as someone who has both a Rogue and a Warrior, that i would have no incentive to play my Warrior if rage worked like Rogues. Why would i want to play a class that under performs another class that uses the same mechanics, the same style, and offers less raid bonuses? Rage is what makes us what we are, they even changed the formula for rage gains just to make it compatible with WoTLK, leaving us rage starved a lot.
"It will stay this way until hybrids vastly outnumber other classes, then they'll probably be nerfed."
Top 2 classes are Druids and DKs, both hybrids, both can tank, both do better dps.
Wither Jul 25th 2009 3:58PM
"Top 2 classes are Druids and DKs, both hybrids, both can tank, both do better dps."
I think you might have misunderstood me, as we agree here. Hybrids in DPS roles currently have no penalty on DPS due to the fact that they can respec and tank (or heal) it they want to. This makes classes with less than 3 viable roles less popular and this has been the trend and will remain so until hybrids receive a nerf / rebalancing, probably in the next expansion.
The only point I think on which we differ is whether the play mechanic (rage) is what defines a warrior or the talent and spells. I still think its the latter, despite your personal experience. Mages vs warlocks vs priests, all use mana, they don't complain that they are too similar because they all use the same underlying mechanic. Feral druids, same mechanics (energy) as rogues, again they don't feel like they are the same class.
Shoryu Jul 25th 2009 5:53PM
Alright you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Even blizzard feels Warlocks and Mages are too similar! Go read the mage Q&A in the forums. Feral druids and rogues play almost exactly alike. They even use the EXACT same gear weapon aside. If you dont think rage separates us form rogues and other classes you are blowing smoke out your @ss. Back when dual weilding 1handers was viable we played just like a rogue except for rage. Our attacks as of now consist of heavy hits and bleeds instead of the rogue light hits and poisons. There are only 2 classes which can do all 3 and ret pallies dont have the same dps as a feral druid or even a boomkin. If a feral can do the same dps as a rogue why roll a rogue? If a warrior uses the same mechanic as a rogue and does less dps why not be a feral. Go roll a DK.
Wither Jul 25th 2009 6:48PM
Clearly you have a rage problem, although it's not with the class.
From what I could gather...
1) You are trying to claim mages and warlocks are too similar because they both use mana and somehow this supports your argument that warriors shouldn't use energy like rogues?
2) "If a warrior uses the same mechanic as a rogue and does less dps why not be a feral. " I got lost on this one, tbh.
3) "If a feral can do the same dps as a rogue why roll a rogue? ". Well, yes they do competitive dps and well you might want to roll a rogue for a lot of reasons, given they have completely different abilities than feral druids...
I confess you have won this argument through belligerence and obfuscation.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. " ~ Mark Twain.
Shoryu Jul 25th 2009 8:19PM
ignorance must truly be bliss. the whole holier than thou attitude only goes to show that you have no idea what you are talking about, go troll some other forums please.
Zinn Jul 25th 2009 9:30PM
@shoryu
I agree with Wither in that way that rage not necessarily has to be what define warriors (and yes, I have both a prot and arms level 80 warrior so I do know what I'm talking about). If you look at games like Warhammer every class uses some sort of energy-pool, which works similarily for everyone. This doesn't mean I would feel anything like a warrior when playing a hunter, or anything like a rogue when playing a warrior (not that they have the same type of classes there, but hopefully you get the point).
The mechanics definitely change what choices you must make in your playstyle, but it doesn't define the class. And the mechanics clearly isn't working very well for warriors. Just because Blizzard once had something they thought would be a great idea doesn't mean it still is and never can be changed.
Asteer Jul 26th 2009 12:58AM
"Same old problem with every class, warriors want competitive DPS with other classes and yet those other classes a) don't wear plate, thus having poor damage mitigation b) can't tank"
deathknights and paladins can both "wear plate" and "can tank". both top warriors in dps atm. (until the warrior has BiS armor.. even then) already your argument is shaky.
that is 2 other classes that that do can and do wear/do the same thing as warriors but do it better.
steven.russell820 Jul 25th 2009 2:40PM
I wouldn't worry about it. You seem to be disreguarding his next sentance.
"But once you always get X rage per second you essentially just have rogue energy."
Hence they aren't going to go down that road. Now the question is... what ARE they going to do about it?
I really don't know the answer, and I'm not sure they do either, hence 4 years of "rage normalisation" when they've known for a very a long time that the mechanic causes them balance problems.
The real problem is that Energy simply works better as a scaling mechanic than rage does. I don't see how they can ever make rage work without setting the optimal normalization every patch.
I don't care what they do with it, as long as it:
a: Focus' on staying as "the more angry I get the more I hurt you" and
b: It works at all levels of progression.
Krenik Jul 25th 2009 2:27PM
Take away rage. Make our abilities cost nothing. I don't see what can go wrong. /signed
Terethall Jul 25th 2009 2:27PM
Although I don't play a warrior, and have never really even bothered to learn much about melee classes in general, I always find The Care and Feeding of Warriors to be a very insightful column and a great way to learn about warriors and melee in general. Excellent article.
Ard Jul 25th 2009 2:30PM
At the risk of being pedantic...
Led. The word is "led." It's the past tense form of the verb "to lead." It's pronounced like the noun "lead," but it's not spelled the same.
Sorry, I see it so much, sometimes it drives me insane. Well, insaner.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled warrior post.
Sleutel Jul 25th 2009 2:36PM
And this whole article doesn't even get into Protection Warriors, who have almost the opposite problem--as OUR gear improves, our effectiveness goes down the toilet. The more damage I avoid, the less threat I can output. And with the general increase in total percentage of Dodge, Parry, and Block, Blizzard relies more and more on increasing single-hit boss damage, so my Rage gains come in spikes, and a lot of it spills over the top. Then, we have the problem of Heroic Strike--it's such a big help to TPS that you want to keep it up all the time, but it takes white damage and turns it into yellow damage, so there's even more lost incoming Rage.
Sleutel Jul 25th 2009 2:41PM
What I really think would help across the board would be for Blizzard to simultaneously nerf Dodge, Parry, Block, and boss melee damage--i.e., make total incoming damage the same but spread it out more evenly. So, instead of a string of hits looking like "Dodged, Parried, Parried, -24k HP, Dodged, Dodged" it would be something more like "Dodged, -8k HP, Dodged, Parried, -8k HP, -8k HP."
Jabadabadana Jul 25th 2009 2:55PM
It is very interesting that prot warriors and dps warriors have inverted gearing issues.
I've managed to hit them in both directions in the last week. I'm finally starting to see rage starvation as a tank on fights like XT, and especially trash when I try and keep 100% uptime on HS. While my dps set gained 2 pieces of new gear and jumped 8-900dps at once. (which was about a 50% increase and makes my DPS offspec actually viable)
I'm sure this all outs me as a mid-grade geared warrior, but it makes it interesting to be on the cusp.
Sleutel Jul 25th 2009 3:07PM
@Jabadabadana:
Do you have enough tanking gear that you could put together separate Block and Avoidance sets? Wearing more Block gear on trash can help with that.