Officers' Quarters: Critical mass
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.How many members should your raiding guild have? It's a simple question with a complex answer. This week, one reader wonders whether his guild simply has too many people.
Hi, Scott.
I'd like to first mention that I'm a big fan of your column, Officers' Quarters. Rock on! And today, I'd like to ask you for advice on the problem that my guild is facing.
I'm a member of a raiding guild, one that hovers just below the best guilds of our realm. We have cleared 10man Ulduar, and I was lucky enough be there as I'm a member of our 10man progression team, which is now doing hard modes. Our 25man . . . well, thats where the problem comes in. Back in May, we didn't have enough strong players to really progress past antechamber. Then things started coming up for our raiders -- we couldn't do a 25man guild run for whole 3 weeks in May-June due to lack of people!
So our officers aggressively recruited people, some of them geared members of a reputable guild that recently went down and some of them friends transferred in from other servers, and our new recruits recommended us with their friends who were also exceptional players. After 3 weeks of no 25man progression, we found ourselves with just under 40 people online for our raid night.
Of 40 confident individuals officers selected 25, and on that night we made amazing progression. Some original guild members voiced concern as they felt that we have way too many raiders and there was bound to be problem arising around raid spots, but officers said the more raiders we have at our disposal, the better.
We started making very fast progression through 25man Ulduar, but at the same time raiders (both old and new) started to leave the guild. Some left and formed a 10man raiding guild of their own, some left and joined guilds that have 25man Yogg on farm, some joined guild that are still working on siege of Ulduar. But there are still too many people as officers accepted more raiders into the guild -- we had 45 people online for our raid today, and when the officer announced that selection of 25 people was over, a lot of angry messages filled the guild chat channel.
A lot of people are angry, and we can see the divide among those that get chosen every week and those that stay on waiting list for 4 hours every night. If this continues, I dare say that we'll have half the guild break up and form another one. What should our officers do?
--S
Thanks for writing, S. It's amazing that your guild is able to recruit so many people. The complaint I'm hearing from most officers is that there just aren't enough competent people to recruit these days. I guess all those players are on your server!
The question, however, is not how you're able to recruit so many, but should you? I don't think "the more, the merrier" is necessarily true for a raiding guild. The problem is this: You can only keep so many players happy at one time.
It's an issue that nearly all officers have to deal with. You want enough people to fill your raid slots for every scheduled run without spending too much effort to scrounge up enough players. But once those people stop showing up, because of school or family or summer, you have no choice but to replace them. You recruit so that you can fill the slots again. Then those people come back and want their raid slot.
It's a problem for nonofficers, too, because ideally you should be able to take a few weeks to sort out some real-life situations without losing your slot. If your guild recruits too aggressively, like S's guild, then you become paranoid that any absence will mean you never get to raid again. That's not a great situation, either.
Raiding guilds have a critical mass. In science, a "critical mass" is the minimum amount of material needed to maintain a nuclear reaction. For a nuclear bomb, if you don't have enough mass, you won't be able to start the reaction. Likewise, with too few players, you won't be able to raid.
But if you have too much mass, the bomb detonates before you want it to. In the case of S's guild, the critical mass has been exceeded. You've got a sustained chain reaction -- you're raiding every night -- but the bomb seems to be blowing up in everyone's face. As a result, a lot of unhappy people are leaving the guild.
The critical mass for a raiding guild depends on a number of factors.
- How often does your guild raid?
- How many players come to just about every raid?
- How many players come to 50% of the raids or less?
- How many players will need to take long or frequent breaks from WoW due to real-life commitments?
- How many players need to be carried by other players in order for the raid to make progress?
If you have too many people, those same players are probably going to be on the short list of players who don't get taken to raids. As a result, they may become disgruntled and leave the guild.
Either way, the officers have to guide the guild toward that critical mass. For this particular guild, the officers seem hellbent on recruiting at any cost. It makes their lives easier, because they can handpick the cream of the crop every night. They never have to worry about whether a raid will happen. And their raids will be tremendously successful, which often leads to better recruiting. They may eventually realize that the drama they're causing isn't worth the convenience. Or they may just be trying to filter out the very best players and let the rest quit.
It's hard to say what their game plan is at this point. So the best thing you can do is to have a talk with them about it. Ask what their plans are for the guild moving forward. If you're concerned about your own slot, ask whether you will be taken to future raids. If you don't like the answers, as a nonofficer, the only thing you can do is start looking for another guild.
If your officers wanted my advice (and I assume they don't, since it's you asking and not them), I'd start filling slots with the people who are both good players and loyal guild members, even if they're not quite as good as some of the new recruits. You may lose some recruits if you do this. But as long as you've still got a critical mass of players, your remaining players will be happier and you'll deal with less drama on your raid nights.
New recruits may be gung-ho at first, but they have no history with your guild. They may jump ship at the first sign of difficulty. For them, it's easy come, easy go.
The people who have been with you for a long time have more at stake, and they're more likely to have your back when the chips are down, as long as you treat them with respect. It's easier to maintain a critical mass with players you can count on.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
yokumgang Jul 27th 2009 11:03AM
Please, PLEASE tell me what server S is on.
I really want to transfer there.
Maximize Jul 27th 2009 7:13PM
I've been in a few guilds lately with varying degrees of this problem.
A month ago I was in a guild that was always just short of having our 25. So we pugged a few spots, took players that were not optimal, or just went short of 25. Progress was slow.
Then that guild merged with another guild that was having the same issue. Progression went through the roof because the best players from each of the old guilds melded into one big butt-kicking machine. But it was like the situation in the article. 15+ people were online and not able to get in the raids. That guild broke up and ended in about the situation it started in.
Now my current guild is one of the top on the server. Most raid nights, there are ~35 people online when the raid is going. Everyone is good so its not like we have to take baddies to keep people from leaving. Nobody raids 100%. Nobody sits 100%. Its a fairly good situation.
Now for my advice. Adjust your recruitment BEFORE you run into problems. You should notice trends. Its unlikely you will go from easily making a raid one week to being five short the next. If you are starting to cut it close, turn up the recruiting. If you are starting to get too many people, slow it down. Just don't wait until you already have a problem. And pay attention to seasonal trends. For instance, you will probably want to preemptively start recruiting just before summer starts because you will see people disappear.
Knob Jul 27th 2009 11:12AM
What is the deal with these people who think they're entitled to a spot on every raid and can't stand a single standby day? It really gets on my nerves. They think they're such good players that no-one can replace them and they can come and go as they please no matter how it affects the guild's raids or the raid's setup.
If you can't deal with being on standby in a raiding guild, you do not deserve to be in that guild. It's much better to have a few extra members with them being on standby than it is to have a lack of raiders and having to call off raids.
These holier-than-thou, instant-gratification players with a sense of entitlement piss me off. Sorry for the rant but as an ex-GM/RL of a guild I just had to vent when I saw this question.
Qot Jul 27th 2009 11:42AM
From the opposite stand-point, how would you feel if you worked hard to make time on your schedule to raid, only to be told "lol sorry full". It's something that shouldn't happen if the officers are on top of things.
Treason Jul 27th 2009 11:43AM
They had *20 extra people*. That's not them being whiney, that's massive over-recruitment, along with not using some sort of sign up mechanism that tells people beforehand if they get to go (like raidninja, etc).
This is *all* on the head of the RL of that group. They need signups, a priority scheme (even if first come first serve per role), and a set number of standbys so this clusterfu never happens again.
Shastern Jul 27th 2009 11:47AM
WTF does your rant even have to do with the original question being asked? NOWHERE in the question OR the response was there ANYTHING that suggested a sense of "entitlement" or anything like it. Please try to exercise some critical thinking skills instead of dashing off an angry screed in a knee-jerk reaction to seeing certain keywords anywhere in a post.
Knob Jul 27th 2009 11:58AM
@Qot and Shastern:
Read the fourth and fifth paragraphs of the e-mail. The ones that came back "voicing concern," which is a polite way of saying they started whining over losing their till-then permanent raid spot because no-one was there to replace them. The guy who asked the question made no bones with diplomatic talk at the end of his e-mail when he mentioned "a lot of angry messages filled the guild chat channel."
I'm sorry, but I really am an advocate of having some extra people instead of not having enough and having to call off raids. I'm now just a member with no leadership responsibilities in a very stable and skilled raiding guild and I do end up being on standby on some nights, be it either progression nights when certain setups are better suited or on farm nights when I may not need some items and someone else does. But I don't raise any hoopla about it since I know I'm not the center of the universe.
Now if the guild in question doesn't have any sort of sign-up system in place and it's an ad-hoc inviting policy, then I can see the issues it can cause. But in that case, now would be the perfect time for the guild's leadership to put a sign-up system in place and adhere to it. Or if they aren't doing so already, it's the place of the guild's members to bring it up on their guild's forums in a constructive way. Don't just point out problems, give out constructive solutions. Don't just spew out "a lot of angry messages filled the guild chat channel," go post constructively on the guild's forums.
Bronwyn Jul 27th 2009 12:04PM
"Some" extra people is a whole lot different than "Nearly a full raid of extra people"
Knob Jul 27th 2009 12:08PM
Maybe I should clarify that the reason I'm probably not too alarmed by the quoted number is because it's almost the same number of people who're online during every raid night in my guild. There has been no drama about it in my guild since people can actually take raid nights off without the guild having to call off raids, not to mention the fact that the RL can swap around some people if someone has to leave mid-raid or if the setup isn't beneficial to a particular fight.
So yeah, I may be biased in that sense but if every raider in the guild thought of themselves as a part of a whole instead of thinking of themselves as the center around which the entire raid revolves, no problems should arise.
Mennoknight Jul 27th 2009 12:26PM
The problem here is what if you've had a core of players who've raided together for months, and then suddenly there are new people and even though those core players are on, they are passed over for spots to get the new players into the raids.
Now I agree that if you are a 25man guild and have significantly more than 25 players you need to have some sort of standby system in place, but from the sound of it, this is a guild that was basically a 10 man group that expanded. One would hope that the 10man core would be some of the best raiders. Why should they not get a spot if they are on on time?
Until the guild stabilizes in members (45 is way to high). Those core members should be in every raid, with the extra slots given to the new recruits. The new members should understand that they were on a trial run, and if they didn't perform they would lose their raid spots. That the Officers could find out who was working and who wasn't and kick the people who arn't working out.
The people who get mad and quit over not getting into every raid (assuming they are newer members) most likely shouldn't be in the guild anyway.
The biggest thing is your officers need to be transparent about their invite policies.
Zanathos Jul 27th 2009 1:27PM
"From the opposite stand-point, how would you feel if you worked hard to make time on your schedule to raid, only to be told "lol sorry full". It's something that shouldn't happen if the officers are on top of things."
Sounds like the standpoint of someone who's never actually organized a continuous raid night. Do you think it's possible to ensure that exactly 25 people show up every night? Unless you're in an exceptionally hardcore guild that can claim 100% attendance, then no. Now I'm not saying that having nearly a second raid of members sitting out is a good thing. It's way too much overflow, at least in my opinion. But the idea that officers can somehow magically always get exactly enough people to fill out a raid is not practical for sustained raiding.
Pat Jul 27th 2009 1:39PM
You do realize this is a GAME, right? People are playing to have fun, not satisfy your leadership needs. Sure, if you can cherry-pick 25 raiders out of a pool of 45 it's easy for you, but that leaves 20 people not having fun.
The point of the letter is that the RL is an idiot like you who forgot that raid slots are filled by people trying to have fun, not souless bots. If you seriously can't see the damage in over-recruiting, that's pretty sad.
Qot Jul 27th 2009 3:27PM
@Zanathos
Actually, I have experience from both sides of the officer line. Nowadays organizing raids is ridiculously simple compared to early BC raiding. You've got an in-game calendar, the option to do 10-man or 25-man, hard modes or normal, dual specs (and people who can play both)...
The rule remains the same, though. As long as you're clear when someone's likely going to be a reserve or likely to be raiding, you will have very few problems. It's when you dangle the illusion of raiding to get people on-line and then yank it away in favor of someone else that you get problems.
toddcore Jul 27th 2009 3:52PM
If this guild had 25 people that were playing for fun and showed up to have fun on a consistent basis then there never would have been a need to recruit so many additional players. The email even admits that they were unable to fill out a raid for 3 weeks.
If you're just playing for fun when it's convenient for you, attending raids when you feel like it and skipping them when you don't, then you're hurting the chances of 24 other people being able to have fun. The only way to compensate for an unreliable, fairweather raider without kicking them is to recruit additional people capable of filling their spots.
Some of you people want to have your cake and eat it, too, and also make sure no one else gets any so that you can have some later if you're in the mood.
Tayla Jul 27th 2009 6:07PM
It's simple, recruit a little more and run two raids.
/shrug
noelkytty Jul 27th 2009 11:51PM
I think the reason people get angry is because raiding isn't a 30-minute affair. Some people have to actually schedule it. Being married with no children, I have to schedule for raiding, and make sure I don't have plans with my wife or friends. If I put a 3-4 hour block of time on a weeknight or a day or two on the weekend, I clear my schedule, and then log in to find that they aren't taking me to the raid, of course I am going to be pissed.
That being said, there IS something that "S" could do to help the problem..
Use the Rank system in the guild. GM/Officer/Core Raiders get guaranteed slots if they accept and show up to a calendar invite on time. The rest, you fill in as necessary, taking several things into account, like attendance, preparedness, time in guild/rank, and class performance. These should all be factors used to determine guild rank to begin with.
Late logging in for an invite you accepted?
Didn't bring enough flasks?
Forgot to bring required reagents?
Each infraction is a strike, and 3 strikes demotes you a rank. Make it harder to gain rank than to lose it.
You will have recruited enough people for a 2nd 25-man Ulduar group by the time you have "too many" of the top ranks completely filling your first 25-man.
Knob Jul 29th 2009 4:28AM
@ Pat:
You sound like just the sort of parasite I'm glad I don't have to deal with in my guild. You seem to the self-serving ingrate who thinks he's entitled to everything and that he's doing a favour for the guild by just being in it.
I can easily picture you being one who doesn't t log in at all for days on end without any prior notification and when you do decide that you want to raid, you log in that day and immediately EXPECT to be invited. If there is no raid that day, it was the officers'/GM's fault. You don't want to sacrifice anything and yet you expect others to sacrifice for you.
Like I said, I'm glad I don't have to deal with you either as a player or a person.
phaedra Jul 27th 2009 11:15AM
Are there requirements for heading into Ulduar? Is there a rotation plan in place at all? How are these 25 players selected -- it the method transparent or is it picking favorites?
With 45 active members on on a given night, would it be possible to form multiple raid teams? It doesn't have to be 2 25 man runs, but possibly an additional 10 man or two? I know that running multiple raids can sometimes be a logistical nightmare, but if you have capable officers and raid leaders and willing guildies (and enough tanks/healers/DPS), you may be able to pull it off.
Azulara Jul 27th 2009 11:35AM
Don't you know? Ten-man raids don't count. They're raiding lite, for the folks who aren't good enough to get into the REAL raid scene.
/sarcasm
I don't like that kind of attitude toward raiding, either, especially since I've only just started it myself for the first time since the game's opening. If you're in a raiding guild and you can't get into the 25-man, go for the ten. It may not be as 'prestigious', but you'll still get stuff (even if it isn't quite as good) and practice.
brian Jul 27th 2009 11:48AM
some people don't want to raid 10 mans. I've reached the point with my main where there's nothing to gain from 10 man Ulduar. I won't heal it. Ever since Blizz rape sticked the Ulduar 10 loot to take all the stamina off it and make it equal to naxx 25 loot or worse there's no point.
If I cant make it into the 25 man raid for the week I leave my email address for the raid leader and play fallout 3 unless they need me.