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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsWhy loot drama happens (and how to prevent it)
by Mike Schramm 
Jul 30th 2009 at 5:00PM
I like this post over at I am a Paladin -- it's a pretty insightful look at why drama is so easy to come by in bigger guilds. Blizzard has done almost everything they can to divide loot fairly (and they're still working on it, with the addition of more token systems), and there are certainly plenty of systems out there to try and keep things as fair as possible. Still, as long as there are only a few rewards to split among 25 people in a raid, there will always be loot drama -- as IaaP says, when people aren't rewarded for their hard work (or at least they perceive that), then frustrations start to set in. And gone unchecked, that can lead to jealousy or resentment, which leads to anger, and that all leads to the kind of spectacular guild breakups you can read about in Guildwatch.So how can you avoid all that?
If the main reason people start causing drama is that they don't feel rewarded, then you've got to find a way to reward them. That might mean going with a more fair loot system (I've been in a few guilds that have switched to DKP at the first hint of drama), it might mean changing up the way you run things (by switching groups around or switching roles in a raid), or it might mean stepping back down into an easier raid to better gear up some of your members.
As long as Blizzard requires more members than loot in a raid, there will always be imbalances, but hopefully most drama issues can be avoided if everyone realizes that though any given piece of loot might get passed out unfairly, there'll always be enough to go around.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Guilds, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Dabua Jul 30th 2009 5:08PM
I personally love SLS (Shroud-Loot-System) !
But as it is said in the article above: There will always be drama around loot.
Sleutel Jul 30th 2009 5:13PM
Too bad this still doesn't solve the problem of people with an inflated sense of entitlement.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jul 30th 2009 5:18PM
There will always be loot drama.
Rewarding? Not so much as people seeing a sense of entitlement and thinking they are owed things more than the other 9 or 24 people they just raided with.
Cleaved Jul 31st 2009 12:38AM
A sense of entitlement isn't a fictional thing. It can be earned. If you show up 1 week out of every 3, why should you outroll someone who was there for every single week? Do you expect a 'Company Car' and a reserved parking space when you go to work as a Temp at some office? Oh, that's right, the Salesperson that has worked there for 10 years gets those things. Just because you spend some part of your day on the 30th floor, doesn't make you entitled to the same things as the people that work there all day.
I would hope that analogy will help drive the point home... but it is the half-ass, "I'll attend a raid when I feel like it" players... that have the sense of entitlement. Therefore, you won't ever get the point... put more work in, get more out.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jul 31st 2009 11:40AM
Put more work in, get more out... would be a correct statement used for things such as dailies and solo-able content. At least there’s some sense of control there within whatever time frame you chose to do these things.
However if you’re raiding more often, then that should expose you to a lot more chances for loot to drop. It’s not really a fair thing to make the raider who might raid less, but still raids, lose out to another raider just because that person spent an extra day or two over them in raiding. The thing I hate seeing the most is when an entitled player bitches about an item and then gets the item and then REPLACES that item in the next half hour because something even better dropped. And I have seen that happened where the person who could have used the item was screwed out of gear - NOT once, but twice - because of the selfishness of the entitled player.
That kind of entitlement, I could do without. If I go on a raid, bring my consumables and my time and work hard for that raid, I expect an equal chance at the loot (otherwise what’s my motivation to come back? Why should I even raid if I’m always going to be passed over because someone believes I don’t raid enough so they can fuel their self-need of entitlement on a pixelated item). Whether, I may come back or I may not, morally that choice is mine alone, but I should not be hindered or penalized because Joe Smoe who lives in his mother’s basement and collects U.I. has more time then me.
And I can tell you from experience that when you’re in a guild that does a loot system where you HAVE to attend every raid to be even allowed a chance to roll for loot the drama skyrockets. People will either raid or not bother at all. When my guild merged for a time with a guild that followed these rules, I stopped playing that character. Do you know why?
They expected me to sit in front of the dungeon raid instance, IN the raid, so that if they needed me I would be pulled in on bosses that dropped next to nothing for a paladin. This meant I could NOT do dailies, quests or any other things in the meanwhile and just had to sit in front of the raid instance and wait for 4 hours. Maybe I’d be on a boss, maybe I’d sit the entire time outside... right. And this piece of bullshit was mixed in with their shitty loot rules that did NOT promoted a fair system. To even roll on gear you had to attend raids, the more times you attended increased the chance you would be automatically given the gear over other people. But guess what, the merging guild started at the bottom with ZERO as attendance, while the guild they joined kept their status. Now you tell me what’s wrong with that? They were working with a sense of entitlement over people who had willinging MERGED (two guilds forming one) together. They were basically taking in the guild members as new members to their guild, NOT as equals.
That sat wrong with me. If I’m on a run and someone else went two times before me, what’s my incentive to go if he’s going to be handed the piece even though I put the same effort in on the workload?
All I know is that after awhile they ended up pissing off all the other members from the old guild who g-quit and went back to our original guild. Why? Loot issues because THAT entitled guild thought it was okay to keep all the loot, NOT share it out with it’s members who were working (better than them) on the raids.
It’s actually quite sad when your guild has less players, but are the skilled ones in the bunch. -_-+
/end chapter rant
impurezero Jul 30th 2009 5:20PM
I just hate how even talking about loot rules seems to go out the window in old school raids.
I've recently been putting together my T1 Pally set for fun, but have had several instances where halfway through MC, the "leader" just decides that since "nobody cares about MC Epics," that everyone was just going to need roll for every single item so that they could get some purple vendor trash.
Sure, I understand that those 80s may be there just for the free achievement...but why not at least ask if any of us lowbies might actually want something beforehand?
(Pre-sponse to, "Outlands gear is better than T1 n00b!": I know that.)
Dightkuz Aug 5th 2009 3:03AM
I like the fact that I managed to antagonize you and still do. But then again, it wasn't that much of a win seeing as you are already quite an angry person simply by looking at your comments.
But alright then, have fun playing WoW! I had fun playing with you.
// The Douchekuz
impurezero Aug 5th 2009 12:37PM
Antogonizing for the sake of antagonizing is about the simplest thing a person could do. There's been a guy standing around Stormwind for the past several days yelling profanities just for the sake of "pissing people off." Is it working? Of course. Does that make him some clever, intelligent or worthwhile person? Of course not.
You're winning at a game that is pretty impossible to lose. If the day ever comes where people don't recoil at sheer stupidity (whether staged or real), then I think the real losers are society.
You can feel free to continue acting like an idiot on here if it really floats your boat, but to act as if you've purposely accomplished something when people respond negatively, simply makes you look like a moron.
Rob Jul 30th 2009 5:23PM
There is pretty much always going to be drama. The thing to realize is that loot council or just /roll is probably the most drama laden systems, while other numerical systems like DKP are less drama prone. Gevlon at his blog makes the point, which I agree with, that for guild progression, loot council is best, while for individual progression, something like DKP is best.
Of course the main thing to realize it that if you put in hard work, show up on time every time with the right stuff and know the fights and not be that guy who has to repair or runs out of ammo, you are going to do fine and the loot will come. It may not come the first week; but if you are one of the go-to guys, yeah it's gonna happen unless you are in some messed up guild that can never get anything done.
Also people just have to feel not entitled and realize that piece of gear you got will be upgraded soon, so don't get too obsessed over X dropping or not dropping. Chances are it will have a good upgrade in a month or two anyway, or you can get an equivalent item via some other means.
Lastly if you have loot problems? Don't tell the guild. Tell the raid leader. Don't cause drama and make raiding miserable for 9 or 24 of your best friends. kthx
Xero Jul 30th 2009 6:41PM
"Lastly if you have loot problems? Don't tell the guild. Tell the raid leader. Don't cause drama and make raiding miserable for 9 or 24 of your best friends."
OMG, someone else uses logic! If people would go to the leaders of the raid/guild, express their problems like non-screaming babies, maybe something will actually come from it. Screaming in /g isn't going to solve anything.
artifex Jul 31st 2009 12:10AM
I'm pretty sure there's loot drama even with DKP. Just look at the Onyxia Wipe animation on YouTube, where the raid leader keeps saying -50DKP for various infractions.
"moar dots, moar dots!"
usagizero Jul 30th 2009 5:32PM
DDO had the best loot system i've seen in my opinion, open a chest, everyone has there loot there, with no way to ninja. If it's your loot, you take it, all random. Sometimes you get crap, sometimes great, but none of this rolling/ninja/dkp nonsense. The systems where you have to rely on someone else for your reward, that's when it fails. I can't count the times i've been in VoA on a pug or whatnot, where i win a roll (after the leader says it's a roll system, but then changes it later) and then get booted before getting the item.
Badges are helping, but the loot system in WoW is it's biggest failing in my mind. You can see this also when you do group collect x items, and it takes forever for the drops.
Condor Jul 30th 2009 5:32PM
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to the Dark Side.
Don't rule with fear; pass your loot out with DKP.
Purechaos Jul 30th 2009 5:46PM
No loot system is fair and is pointless to fight over them. While many people claim that Rolling is fair, its simply not.
Why thats you may ask? Because Fairness is Derived by different things depending on who you are. What is or isnt Fair is based on Opinion.
So each loot system has its ups and downs. Its which are you willing to accept.
For my Guild Suicide kings has worked great(not the bidding, just the general Yours on a list , highest on it gets the item and drops to the bottom)
Cowy Jul 30th 2009 5:48PM
"When people aren't rewarded for their hard work (or at least they perceive that), then frustrations start to set in. "
HA! Try being a solo player in a raiders world... *sigh* Zerg mentality rules, hard personal effort means nothing.
I'd be happy if Blizzard would get rid of BOP completely. Let the ones who want to raid, get all the money from selling their leftovers on the AH to people like me who don't want to raid, have money, but nothing they can buy with it.
The raiders would be able to line their pockets, as well as do something with useless drops (other than disenchant).
Tokens are another frustration...but whatcanyado. Working hard means nothing unless you do it in a heroic dungeon. :(
I play wow for the world, not a rinse repeat arena or dungeon. So I deal with my choice. I do get royally screwed though for it.
theRaptor Jul 30th 2009 6:18PM
If you don't raid (or even run dungeons) why do you care about loot? Why care about something that has only cosmetic effect? Especially as current loot is no where near the best looking loot in the game.
Do you really care about numbers in a spreadsheet?
I raid to kill bosses, loot is only an ends to a means.
Hoggersbud Jul 31st 2009 2:17AM
He cares about the items which are far better than anything he can get on his own.
jasonkidd1234 Jul 30th 2009 5:49PM
The annoying thing for me isn't that loot is dropped, and I don't win it, it's that nothing EVER seems to drop for pure dps classes.
I've been 80 only for a month or so, and in that time managed to get geared enough to run 25 naxx. I've ran it twice, all the way through, and not ONE hunter item has dropped. It's not that they've dropped and soembody else has won them, we've got two uldaur geared hunters that are helping us run, it's that nothing EVER drops. 2 25 naxx's, like 3 10 VOA's, and 2 10 OS's, and not one item i could justify rolling.
At this point, I'd be happy to get an item that I could use drop, even if I didn't win it.
I've been working extremely hard, proving to the people in the guild that even though I don't know the fights, I'm willing to learn, and that even if my dps is a little lacking, I can make up for it in knowing what i'm doing. Many of the fights where you have to change targets, such as the giant spider thing, I'm one of the few who manages to shift to the people webbed up in a reasonable amount of time, and in VOA I am the only person doing it that tries to draw adds to our off tank.
It just seems that the effort i'm putting out is useless. I'm getting badges, but really It'll be a while before I get enough to buy anything useful, I'm mostly in crafted epics and heroic epics/blues. It's literally made me stop playing the game until 3.2 comes out and makes things a little easier for people like me. If it wasn't bad enough trying to get geared for raids with the severe lack of people running heroics that I needed to run, as i always seemed to miss the dailies that had good hunter drops, and when i did play the dailies were for heroics that I already had loot from or were useless for me. Then I finally manage to level my lwing to get me some epics and enchants and I still can't get an upgrade despite running naxx as much as possible.
My drama with Looting isn't that I can't seem to win any, it's that I can't seem to FIND any to complain about not winning...
Shoryu Jul 30th 2009 6:07PM
nothing worth having, is easily obtained. 6 months of naxx and no BoH for me. less QQ more Pew Pew.
Jezza Jul 30th 2009 6:09PM
Jason,
If you've been doing all the little stuff in guild, then hopefully people will notice and appreciate it .. and you'll be rewarded with a regular raid position .. and with that, eventually your loot will drop (yes loot % drops suck .. but there is always that extra gambler's excitement / adrenalin rush when it does drop that Blizz has us addicted to).
If not, then maybe it's the guild you are with that aren't recognising it .. and you should find a new guild (goes to the point where people aren't feeling recognised/rewarded for what they do)
Small things (from warrior perspective, I can't talk from hunter) like demo shout / sunders / thunderclaps etc decrease personal dps, but add to raid dps .. and hopefully your raid leader, or at least your tank will recognise it and