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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsWhy loot drama happens (and how to prevent it)
by Mike Schramm 
Jul 30th 2009 at 5:00PM
I like this post over at I am a Paladin -- it's a pretty insightful look at why drama is so easy to come by in bigger guilds. Blizzard has done almost everything they can to divide loot fairly (and they're still working on it, with the addition of more token systems), and there are certainly plenty of systems out there to try and keep things as fair as possible. Still, as long as there are only a few rewards to split among 25 people in a raid, there will always be loot drama -- as IaaP says, when people aren't rewarded for their hard work (or at least they perceive that), then frustrations start to set in. And gone unchecked, that can lead to jealousy or resentment, which leads to anger, and that all leads to the kind of spectacular guild breakups you can read about in Guildwatch.So how can you avoid all that?
If the main reason people start causing drama is that they don't feel rewarded, then you've got to find a way to reward them. That might mean going with a more fair loot system (I've been in a few guilds that have switched to DKP at the first hint of drama), it might mean changing up the way you run things (by switching groups around or switching roles in a raid), or it might mean stepping back down into an easier raid to better gear up some of your members.
As long as Blizzard requires more members than loot in a raid, there will always be imbalances, but hopefully most drama issues can be avoided if everyone realizes that though any given piece of loot might get passed out unfairly, there'll always be enough to go around.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Guilds, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
artifex Jul 31st 2009 11:41PM
"The annoying thing for me isn't that loot is dropped, and I don't win it, it's that nothing EVER seems to drop for pure dps classes."
You need to be pugging VOA and OS, more, perhaps. Make sure you run 25s, not just 10s, if you can.
I'm a lock. That's a pretty pure dps class, wouldn't you say? I'm limited in my weapon selection and I'm a clothie, to boot. And I'm in a casual guild that runs NOTHING together. And yet I've got a set of T7.5, and a pretty good set of hateful/deadly/furious PVP also. Yeah, I'm still short on a good weapon, which means I need to go back to Naxx again sometime, or something. And I definitely should start pugging Ulduar. But the armor drops for dps are definitely out there. Some people even call them welfare purples and whine because they're not super hard to get.
thebvp Jul 30th 2009 5:58PM
The problem with DKP, particularly zero sum dkp, is that prices are fixed and don't always reflect the real value of the item to the individual. This leads to situations where items can be left to rot or where people hoard dkp and skip valuable upgrades because they want loot elsewhere ("I'm going to keep my Naxx 10 gloves, even though 25 man Naxx gloves just dropped, because I reeeeeally want to be the first in my guild to get that orby mace thingey from Ulduar"). Zero sum also works when you never pug, but can cause tremendous problems if you pug a lot.
Loot council can also cause problems if the raid doesn't completely trust their raid leader.
Raiding is hardly as formal as it was and I think /random really is the way to go, perhaps coupled with a "zero pieces won this run take priority, then one piece, etc." You can't argue with a random number generator.
Not to mention, it's a freaking game, not a full-time job. WotLK is all about that. There's no need to keep some elaborate spreadsheet and perform calculus every time you down a boss.
sephirah Jul 30th 2009 5:59PM
Just remove bosses loot tables and have every boss drop emblems tied to that particular raid.
Bosses drops emblem and every player gets one (like it's now) but no other gear. At the raid entrance put a vendor from whom you can buy all the items tied to that raid for a number of badges.
Shoryu Jul 30th 2009 6:09PM
well you do realize that would completely remove the urge to run different dungeons with the same tokens, and there goes all of blizzards hard work.
theRaptor Jul 30th 2009 6:36PM
Not going to happen. Blizzard put in the current badge system to fix the "nothing I need ever drops syndrome" and to make people feel like doing a run without getting a drop wasn't a waste of time.
People are already wearing homogenous enough gear as it is, we don't need everyone being even more identikit clones because they will spend their tokens the "best" way according to ElitistJerks.
Also "will the boss drop the item I need?" anxiety does add a little excitement to raiding. Except when the item you want never drops (damn you to hell Trial Fire Trousers!).
sephirah Jul 31st 2009 4:43AM
@Shoryu
This is the reason I wrote that each raid drop a different token. You use them to get items that would have dropped from bosses in that raid.
@theRaptor
Frankly I prefer the "Nice, in 4 weeks I'll be able to get item X!" than "Well, le'ts hope that item X drops today, it's 4 weeks I don't see it"
Jezza Jul 30th 2009 6:03PM
From a guild perspective
You can't please 100% of people 100% of the time.
Majority rules, so you need a system that the majority of people are happy with, or at least understand. If there are drama issues, it's up to the leadership to quickly resolve anything that needs clearing up.
Now I'm sure everyone has their ideal loot system, but I thought I'd mention what we adopted, because it addresses some of the issues of new vs loyal-proven raiders.
Our guild moved to Ni Karma in Wrath, and it's proving to be pretty good.
It rewards those who have been raiding for a while with a heavier-weighted roll, as well as encouraging people to only roll for it if they really want it (since they would lose half of their "karma").
In this way, new recruits also have a chance at loot as well (Older raiders wouldn't want to spend a lot of karma on minor upgrades).
Of course there are ways to abuse it, but these can be managed.
The important thing is that everyone understands it, and that loot rules are not changed halfway.
In a pug, no such loyalty exists, so /roll is really the only way to go. I don't believe in the performance thing, as there are always circumstances where this can also be doctored.
(eg. no loot if you die. That's not always entirely up to you)
Charlie Jul 30th 2009 6:03PM
DKP systems are fair, the there a pain in the ass.
The best system in my opinion, while one of the most susceptible to favoritism (loot council is the most), is a main spec/off spec with a guild rank prioirity. Raiders > Members > Recruits > Alts (etc.)
Now this system requires the officers to not play favoritism, but it allows you to reward those players who are dedicated, so you don't get into a situation where recruits take a BIS over your MT.
But again, its very susceptible to favoritism. (Like someone? Promote them to raider in 2 weeks, don't like someone? Make them have perfect attendance for 2 months to get raider, etc.)
thebvp Jul 30th 2009 6:14PM
With this system, what's the incentive to even raid if you are a normal member? Spend four weeks in the grinder and *maybe* get a single upgrade?
Similarly, raiders are probably going to be the ones with the best gear, while members will be the ones most in need of upgrades. An upgrade from a "regular member" may be worth much, much more to the raid than a small upgrade going to a "regular raider." Plus, it might give them the incentive to raid more, in which case you've just gained yourself a new, regular member.
Your system just breeds elitism and discourages your second-hand citizens from participating, when you should doing the opposite- encouraging your regular members to attend and step up.
Worcester Jul 30th 2009 6:52PM
I could easier upgrade as a PuG with a /roll. Why would people join your guild?
You must have a girl who raids.
Hiratha Jul 30th 2009 10:50PM
What the hell has gender got to do with it?
Charlie Jul 31st 2009 2:43AM
@thebvp
in my experience, if people are to impatient to wait a few weeks in order to get loot, they aren't going to stick around very long. Those that are willing to wait are members that your going to have for a long time, years even.
It's the same as any loot system. Take DKP, you wait for awhile to get your DKP up to where the raiders are to get items. It also doesn't punish players for taking loot (which essentially what DKP does).
@Worcester
Depends on your gear level. If your just running naxx then probobly. However, the odds of you finding a pug every week that will be doing 10m hardmodes (were currently working on watcher hardmodes), and working on vezax in 25m, is pretty much slim to none.
It's not a perfect system, and no system is. But it works for us. Hell, the guilds been using it for four years, and we haven't had any major loot drama at all. (Major meaning, people leave the guild over it).
danawhitaker Jul 30th 2009 6:15PM
Our guild just had our first successful Naxx-10 completion this past week (yes, we're a small guild, and we're behind, I'm well aware). Common sense goes a long way toward alleviating problems. The only near-issues we almost had involved someone rolling on DPS gear when they weren't DPS. It was pseudo-good gear for their class (druid tank) but the pieces were definitely primarily for melee DPS based on several of the stats. The person lost both of the rolls, but we're going to try and tighten up our looting system before we run this week to prevent similar problems.
Right now, we're running on master-loot with the "roll if it's an upgrade and your class" mentality. Our main goal is to get geared. And common sense goes a *long* way. One of the bosses dropped plate shoulders in my run - Gluth, I think it was - as well as the T7 Warrior/Shaman/Hunter shoulder token. I hadn't checked what had dropped, so I went ahead and rolled on (and won) the first set of shoulders. Then the GM announced the T7 token and I was like !#$^!#@, if I'd known that. I didn't roll again, I just let it go since I'd already won good shoulders. It would have been rude to roll again when someone else could use them. Though, in the second part of the run, the T7 shoulders showed up again, and this time no one else needed them, so I was able to get them anyway.
I don't like the idea of using something like DKP because while it provides an incentive for people to show up and raid, at the same time, it also doesn't if you aren't able to go every single time. If you know that some guy who has no life and goes to every single raid scheduled will always be able to outbid you on items, you have less incentive to even bother trying. I prefer the method where everyone in the run is treated equally on that run. I'd rather let everyone have a shot at it and be more inclined to come back next time because they know they won't automatically get shut out of loot just because they aren't part of their guild (we have to sub in a few people to account for people coming/going during the run). We also don't set any limits on how often people can roll - although in the case of my situation, where you won an item, it's considered rude to roll on an item for the same slot within the same raid if no one else needed it, and it would be frowned upon. Otherwise, roll if it's an upgrade. Eventually, everyone will get geared.
The whole DKP system is why I would be afraid to PUG any raids. It's a big time investment to go raid and go in knowing you aren't likely to get anything for your time except maybe an achievement.
danawhitaker Jul 30th 2009 6:20PM
Oh yes. And main spec rolls get priority. Off-spec rolls are only allowed when no one else can use the item for a main spec. Otherwise you start to run into major problems. Though there's also some wiggle room in that regard. We have a pally who's an awesome healer and tank, and I'd say he does each about 50% of the time, since we're often short tanks for heroic runs. He runs raids as a healer. When tanking gear dropped that no one needed, he offered to split the roll with me even though my off-spec set is way on the bottom of my priority list and I've only tanked one BC heroic since I started building it. I let him have the gear. This is why a good GM is important too. They'll generally know which of their members do what and how to apply rules to off-spec rolls, because there can be some wide variance there.
Jezza Jul 30th 2009 6:31PM
The key words here are "guild" and "common-sense"
Throw in "loyalty" and you have thr trifecta
Unfortunately not always present.
DKP-type systems are designed to protect loyal raiders.
In the case of your raid, things went smoothly, and also had considerate raiders partaking in the raid (eg. yourself passing on the 2nd shoulders).
An instance of where this is dangerous is where a new person in the raid winning a majority of the rolls, and then leaving the guild since they have no investment in the guild. Been through it before.
However, if the people in your guild are decent, then there is no need for such a system
Shamman22 Jul 30th 2009 6:26PM
The way to remove loot drama is make it a purely token based system. The more raids you do, the more tokens you get to buy the gear you want. No ninja'ing, no ego-maniacal raid leaders in charge of loot. It would remove ALL the stress revolving around loot. There is the argument to this system, that it would remove the cool factor of getting loot inside the instance. The answer to this, so what? Usually what happens with said gear, if the person is really set on equipting it, is that they need to leave the raid to go gem and enchant the item. What would be the difference in the same person having to go to buy the item they just earned? The people that claim to have figured out the perfect system, and that just can't understand what all the fuss is are either lying or playing with only good friends. The truth is, most people have to play with or pug on occasion and with the current system you just have to cross your fingers anxiously and hope that you won't lose drops to either ninja's or raid leaders with some bizarre system of loot distro that doesn't favour pugs.
Shamman22 Jul 30th 2009 6:32PM
Oh yeah, just to clarify, this is my dream for WoW 2 or the upcoming bio-ware MMO. I realize that WoW as it's currently set up is doomed to never ending loot drama.
Jezza Jul 30th 2009 6:35PM
The reason for this was mentioned earlier I believe,
People would avoid the instances they don't like, wasting developer effort.
Also, if it were that easier to get loot, everyone would be max geared very quickly and there wouldn't be any more reason to raid ... and Blizzard's concern ... subscribe.
All the features in the game are designed to make people keep playing and playing.
thebvp Jul 30th 2009 6:41PM
Or just give everyone their own loot window. Instead of making 25 people fight for 4 presents under the tree, give each player their own present, with a loot tables based on class. All the priests get "priest presents," shamans get an item from the shaman loot table, etc.
If progression was an issue, just change the table so that you don't get gear every time, but it would average out. So maybe you would have a chance to get an extra badge instead of a piece of gear, etc.
Shamman22 Jul 31st 2009 2:29PM
Since there is no reply link on the persons response below I'm posting here.
"The reason for this was mentioned earlier I believe,
People would avoid the instances they don't like, wasting developer effort.
Also, if it were that easier to get loot, everyone would be max geared very quickly and there wouldn't be any more reason to raid ... and Blizzard's concern ... subscribe.
All the features in the game are designed to make people keep playing and playing."
This argument has two major flaws. One is that if Ulduar and naxx had there own emblems, how would people avoid it if they wanted gear from there? If they wanted no gear from there, they wouln't be raiding in the first place. Secondly, how would it be easier to get loot? The better the items, the more they cost, therefore, to get fully ulduer geared you'd have to run the place for a long time. I'm sure they could figure out the average amount of runs it takes a guild to get geared from a raid and make items priced so that it would take the same amount of time. The leet guilds would still get thier gear first because they'd be completing more bosses. The only people against this type of fair system are most likely ninja's or the egomaniacle raid leaders it would be meant to stop.