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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsWhy loot drama happens (and how to prevent it)
by Mike Schramm 
Jul 30th 2009 at 5:00PM
I like this post over at I am a Paladin -- it's a pretty insightful look at why drama is so easy to come by in bigger guilds. Blizzard has done almost everything they can to divide loot fairly (and they're still working on it, with the addition of more token systems), and there are certainly plenty of systems out there to try and keep things as fair as possible. Still, as long as there are only a few rewards to split among 25 people in a raid, there will always be loot drama -- as IaaP says, when people aren't rewarded for their hard work (or at least they perceive that), then frustrations start to set in. And gone unchecked, that can lead to jealousy or resentment, which leads to anger, and that all leads to the kind of spectacular guild breakups you can read about in Guildwatch.So how can you avoid all that?
If the main reason people start causing drama is that they don't feel rewarded, then you've got to find a way to reward them. That might mean going with a more fair loot system (I've been in a few guilds that have switched to DKP at the first hint of drama), it might mean changing up the way you run things (by switching groups around or switching roles in a raid), or it might mean stepping back down into an easier raid to better gear up some of your members.
As long as Blizzard requires more members than loot in a raid, there will always be imbalances, but hopefully most drama issues can be avoided if everyone realizes that though any given piece of loot might get passed out unfairly, there'll always be enough to go around.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Guilds, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Artificial Jul 30th 2009 6:36PM
"As long as Blizzard requires more members than loot in a raid, ..."
This is, of course, the real problem. It's poor game design coupled with a lack of desire to fix the problems. The problem won't go away as long as the game remains intentionally broken...
taintedbeef Jul 30th 2009 6:42PM
DKP is the most unfair loot system there is it rewards the veteran players in every raid who have been in the guild for ages. /roll works great as long as people are mature about things. being greedy in a raid is just stupid and itll piss people off like myself. best loot system ive used so far is attendance points.
Every new raider starts off with 10 points and for every raid you attend you receive 1 point.
you roll on main spec loot and if your the highest person with points you have the choice to keep or pass. if you roll for off spec the highest roll wins the loot if nobody for main spec wants it. This give all new raiders in the guild to have a chance at loot with zero guild drama. no penalties or none of that bull like DKP does. DKP is just for greedy people it never works for new raiders.
theRaptor Jul 30th 2009 7:03PM
You mean the guys that spent a lot of time fighting bosses and didn't get much for it (to have stored up lots of DKP)? Yeah fancy that someone should be rewarded for long term effort. The new guys who get all the un-needed loot should also get that BiS chest that has only dropped once before. New raiders angry at being carried through a raid and given gear for little effort obviously aren't greedy /sarcasm.
And what you are suggesting comes under the non-technical usage of "DKP" (which has come to mean any points buy system).
If you are talking about some kind of retarded DKP system were they have been getting points since classic I can see your complaint. If you are talking about the normal kind of DKP where people who raid more get priority you are just an entitled noob.
grarlex Aug 1st 2009 12:01PM
You might want to read up on EPGP if you like your current system.
The difference between EPGP and DKP is that it's based arround two scores.
EP are points you get for raiding - some reward it based on boss kills, we like to award it using the "periodic award" option. This means that to get EP you have to raid.
GP are points you get for looting - The system have a formula to calculate or you could just use some standard value of your own. Our need rolls goes for the full points while a greed roll goes for 20% of the value to make sure we DE as little as possible :)
How much EP and how much GP you have don't matter - The system works by calculating a loot priority. This priority is EP divided by GP - in other words; How much you've raided divided by how much you've looted. If you raid little, and you loot accordingly you'll have the same priority as one that's there EVERY day.
To make sure that past stays past we do a decay of 10% each week. This don't affect the priority as both numbers go down by 10% so the equation is the same (assuming you have looted).
The reason why we picked a looting system is that even those that only do /roll have one (they expect players to behave and only roll for upgrades etc), and looking at the options arround this one was the only one we found that worked both for casual and regular raiders.
Humans are award driven. For some the award is loot/gearup, for others it's besting content. Using this system we manage to award those that favor loot over progress in a fair way. Progress comes from hard work, and rewarding players for turning up ensures this :)
Clarick Jul 30th 2009 6:46PM
My guild just rolls. Funny thing we are all adults with social skills and we don't go stupid over things. I thing the method you use is heavily dictated by the culture of your group/guild. I personally don't get to raid alot but my guild recognizes that. I contribute to the guild in other ways (helping with daily group quests, mats in the GB, so on) so when something drops that I can use they give it to me.
Noscy Jul 30th 2009 7:09PM
SK Suicide List is a very good system. Our Guild utilised it upon WotLK being released from the dated DKP system.
Initial roll /1000 to place you in the list
And it becomes a queue system, if your first in the queue and you want a piece of loot, you're going to get it. But by doing so you relinquish you position to go to the back of the queue.
Basically if item 'Best in slot of awsomeness' dropped which so happened to be a caster shield, all classes (shamans/paladins) could bid on it, the higher in the queue you were the more likely you were going to get it. But again by doing so you go back to the end of the queue.
Very transparent, list done via a mod, you can setup different tables of lists like Main spec, off spec and tier all with their independent list.
Just Me Jul 30th 2009 7:28PM
It's sad that DKP and the rest of that mess is necessary. We've been incredibly fortunate that the majority of people in our groups have been looking out for the good of the overall raid. Sure, the warlock might want that slight upgrade 7.0 to 7.5, but when we have a new healer who the gear run is actually for to get him cycled into the Ulduar rotation, they will 9 times out of 10 pass to the guy with the blue or the heroic gear on. Doesn't always happen that way, though, so even in the best of mature groups someone will occassionally get butthurt or decide that they deserve everything more because they've been there longer/been to more raids, etc. (The officers or "established" players who were there before they began serious raiding...you know the crap DPS/Heals/tanks that everyone is stuck with because they've been there so long they have management status...are the absolute worst when it comes to entitlement based gear whoring)
The chuckleheads in the crowd need to realize that to progress, you're not the only one that needs gear. Good on ya if you're in full 8.0, but guess what - if the rest of your raid team is rocking Naxx10 gear you're not going anywhere. They also need to realize that gearing up the people that are dire necessity players (healers/tanks because, seriously, who can't come up with a DPS) even if they are not in the set group you already have, is to your interest. How many times has your group had to cancel because your core people had an emergency/working late/sick kid/mom won't let them on situation has cropped up?
You want the difference between a good guild and a bunch of egotistical, me me me jackasses? When someone doing a charity gear run rolls on a minor upgrade and wins then actually takes a look at the gear the other rollers are wearing before taking it.
youngshinobi Jul 31st 2009 1:22AM
To the guys who are argueing about the /roll
I can see how tank 3 get the gear and it would suck im sure ive been there with lots of ppl who are horrible and get geared in 1 night. id say not have him be a tank i wouldnt c why you would need 3 tanks anymore for most raids. if your not a serious guild about loot then sucks to be those guys but if you where then tank 3 wouldnt get loot cause of attendence most likely its how most raid guilds work for most of you guys who say thats unfair. if u must know ive had a priest in guild who started to say they wanted to quit the game because it got boring to her and before logging off for 2 months took KT 10 man Mace from me and left. after 2 months we where on ulduar(finally got mace...) and she decides to want to log in and expect to come to ulduar in her gear lvl which was only 10 man nax lvl. we didnt take her because with her saying she wasent going to want 2 log on anymore, we recruited more healers to fill in her spot and she went apeshit and started badmouthing us for trying to ruin the guild and cause drama, eventually she gquit with her husband after doing 4 bosses in ulduar and bragging about how she outhealed me on 1 boss(note im a shaman and shes a priest who has better raid heals and doesnt require ppl to GROUP UP). she overreacted when we said she can log off and take in another healer who where on alot earlier then her and more geared and experienced then her and she kept saying she was sick and bitching. Now since she was an officer because of her husband being an officer which is a funny story they are the ones who invited us and we helped them ALOT they both gquit and later on most ppl left over summer and now me and my g/f are now considering taking the rest of the friends we made in the guild and going to AIon. So all this was mainly someone who got rewarded for hardwork we did and never gave much back.
Charlie Jul 31st 2009 2:45AM
The most important thing about loot system is that your members think its fair.
If your members feel loot is being distributed in a fair way (and you stick to those rules), then you will have no problems.
It really doesn't matter if the system is actually fair or not, as long as your members think so, it will work.
biohazard Jul 31st 2009 5:12AM
^^^ her gm
The only problem we've come across so far *was* that helm issue, the shoulders were more or less a stumbling block, a kinda learn from experience if you will. Otherwise our "need if you need it" loot rule works well. Main spec over off spec and thats it, people get gear and get on.
"An instance of where this is dangerous is where a new person in the raid winning a majority of the rolls, and then leaving the guild since they have no investment in the guild. Been through it before."
That really wouldn't happen for the sense of this is a VERY small guild and we are casual raiders who have pretty much known each other from anywhere from 1 year to almost 8 years in/out of game. So there is a lot of previous respect for loot.
biohazard Jul 31st 2009 5:15AM
freaking hell, reply button is borked, i was replying WAY up there to danawhitaker
/sigh
skyeandangus Jul 31st 2009 7:48AM
I've never understood to over-reaching need to be fair, and the use of Attendance as the mechanic. Always being around doesn't make you more any more important than an equally specced player. Perfect attendance should not be a measure of who gets what. ANYONE can get high attendance, and, as a result, get high DKP, despite the fact that they may stink as a player.
In my mind, there's really only 2 ways to fairly distribute loot. Random Roll and loot council. On Radndom roll, if you attend all the time, you get more rolls on gear, and, hence, you eventually get gear. In Loot Council the gear goes to the player most in need of the gear for the sake of thr raid.
I think Blizzard may be going in the right direction with universal tokens in Tier 9, but, as long as I don't know what a boss will drop, drama will happen.
Jason Jul 31st 2009 9:13AM
I treat raids as an entity unto themselves. The more you go the better your chances are of getting loot. You don't need an artificial system to divide up gear. It's only purpose is to make the immature players happy. A group of mature players can handle it easily. Kick the whiners.
A simple roll system works fine amongst people who can actually use that gear. I don't care if you raid every single night or just one. Treat it likes taxes. You file your return, you pay, you get a refund whatever. Then it's done for that year and you move on.
When that raid is done it's done. You got gear, you didn't get gear and you move on. You roll you get it or not. Simple. Move on to the next raid and try your luck again.
Some people simply don't have the time to raid much. Nor should one be tied to their computer. I don't think these people should be penalized just because others have no life and are there every single night. Otherwise they would just stop going all together.
I'll say it again, the more you raid the better the chance you have of getting gear. You don't need an artificial system to hand you gear because you feel entitled. Everyone that is there and contributing for that particular raid should have an equal chance.
Anyone that starts throwing a temper tantrum can be kicked.
Naix Jul 31st 2009 9:53AM
Biggest loot drama is the raid leaders that TRY to get you to equip BOE after you won the roll.
Someone tried to get me to do that last night and I said "Try and find another tank at this hour this far into the week"
Needless to say the item is on the AH for 800 gold.
t0xic Jul 31st 2009 12:25PM
If you roll on a BOE item (assuming free rolling) there is generally an understanding (in guild runs) that you are rolling because it's an upgrade -- especially if you are rolling against other people that WOULD equip it.
If it's a simple matter of nobody needing it, then the raid leader should've opened it up for everyone to roll on it or it should've been given to the guild bank.
You didn't really give all the facts, but from the sound of it you should've either equipped the item or let the guild bank have it. Was this a PUG run? I doubt you'd still be in your guild otherwise.
Seaborn Jul 31st 2009 10:02AM
I feel loot council is the fairest way. If I am in a guild that cant do a proper loot council then i need to find a new guild. That said, any guild doing loot council should use "Raid Tracker" every night. As a former GM of a raiding guild it is impossible to keep up with who got what in your head. Even writing it down will become over whelming once the pages become numerous.
I'm not one that gets bent over loot. But it does become frustrating when you show up every night on time week after week, month after month and get passed over all the time and see loot going to players with spotty attendance or players that are late all the time. I don't really fault the LC because having been in that situation I know whats its like. It's still frustrating though.
I think they should make even more items available to the badge or emblem system. I not fond of the fact that you can raid 4-5 nights a week for months and still not get an item you are after.
Clbull Jul 31st 2009 10:41AM
Imho, certain loot systems like EPGP, DKP, and Swaps are the way to go here. They try to reward players for raid attendance, but penalise them for getting loot (particularly EPGP.)
As for your idea, "I think they should make even more items available to the badge or emblem system", I agree 100%. I think its frustrating when an item you want has a low drop chance, and a new guild member or even someone who was pugged gets it over you.
Clbull Jul 31st 2009 10:34AM
In my honest opinion, I think its the fact that you can only do raids once per week, in one set raid ID, and the drop rates for certain items are often infrequent, and will very likely end up with someone else rolling higher/getting priority over you.
Take Naxxramas (10 man) for instance. Nerubian Conquerer drops from Kel'Thuzad, is the only ilvl213 ranged weapon that drops from 10 man raiding, has a drop chance of 19%, and requires you to go through the WHOLE instance (thats right, all 16 bosses) just to get a chance for it to drop. And theres always a chance that someone else will get priority over you.
I personally don't like Naxxramas because apart from the fact that you can do the quarters in any order you like, it feels far too linear unlike Ulduar.
micgillam Jul 31st 2009 12:02PM
(Full disclosure: I haven't spent much time in endgame at all, I've only done a handful of 25-man raids, but I've probably done thousands of 5-man dungeons between vanilla and now)
Say you're considering giving your MT priority on a item that is a marginal upgrade for him, over an off-tank who is in dire need of an upgrade in the same slot, but can only raid every other week while your MT raids every week.
Lets break that down into numbers for a second: MT raids twice as often as OT (which means two things, a) giving the weapon to MT would benefit the guild in raids twice as often, and b) MT has twice the chance of running across it again or any other upgrade for that slot acquired through raids). That item would increase MT's effectiveness by 3%. That item would increase OT's effectiveness by 15%. Who "deserves" it more? Obviously your MT, he shows up every week, he's your MT, this is an upgrade for him. But who would it be of the most benefit to your guild's raids to give it to? IMO the OT in this case. If we convert it to a buff, using basic in-game mechanics, would you rather have +3dmg on each strike, or +15dmg on a 50% proc? So if you're actually going to give it to someone, it should be "less deserving" person. If you're going to count the number of raids someone's done toward their eligibility for the item, then it's a guild thing. If it's a guild thing, you have to choose the option that is best for the guild's raiding overall.
If each raid is separate entity, your MT still has twice the chance your OT does of getting any given drop. On the weeks that they're both there, they both contribute to the success (or failure) of the raids. It comes up, they both roll. That's it. Just like pugging 5-mans while leveling.
Real example: I've started leveling my DK through outland this week, angling for Frost Tanking so that I have a second option over my Prot/Fury warrior. I've run Hellfire Ramps 7-8 times in hopes of getting the polearm from the chest there. I like polearms, I currently use one, they suit my taste. So as my pug was about to start it, our tank (I wasn't tanking yet, wasn't quite confident enough in the DK tanking mechanics) suddenly had to bail. I offered to tank it, but warned that I was new to DK tanking. After the first couple pulls, I had it down pretty well for the standard trash groups, no problem holding boss aggro, all good. Smooth run, decent time. Polearm finally drops. The DK 2 levels lower than me who DPSed the run and got the achievement on that run (so obviously it was his first on that toon) rolls need on it against me and wins. Obviously I'm frustrated. Obviously I feel like I've been working harder at, like I've earned it, and it'd still be a substantial upgrade from the uncommon that I'm currently packing (better stats and a 12% base dps increase). I congratulated him on winning it. It's a big upgrade for him too (bigger in-fact, but not by very much). It's suitable for him to continue to DPS with, he can equip it, he was there for the run, he was well within his rights to roll Need on the only item I was there for. Sometimes you have to recognize that as frustrated and disappointed as you are when the item you're after drops but goes to someone else, they had an equal right to roll on it, you shouldn't be upset with them for rolling on it, it's just the way it happens sometimes. Chill out, because one of two things will happen: either you'll get it on a later run, or you'll find something better and upgrade straight to it.
t0xic Jul 31st 2009 12:34PM
[WALL OF TEXT] CRITS FOR 10 GAZILLION DAMAGE. YOU ARE DEAD.
For the record, I read your entire post. You almost lost me at "Lets break that down into numbers for a second".
I agree with what you said. Are you an English major by chance? =)