/Roll=fail

Imagine this:

BIS tanking weapon drops, you have 3 tanks in the raid, 2 are dependable and have been in the guild for over a year, lets call them tank 1 and tank 2. Then you have tank 3 who joined the guild a couple of weeks ago and raids when he feels like it, but he is still getting invites because the raid needs to be filled. Tank 1 rolls a 40, tank 2 rolls a 70 (Woot) but then tank 3 rolls a 99.... Now you have a scrub with the best weapon in the game and 2 great tanks pissed off.

@ jose

so what is your solution? Deny tank 3 the oppertunity for better gear? If that's the case what's his incentive to run the raid if he knows he can't get any upgrades unless he is as well loved, or has a schedule that makes him just as available as tank 1 and 2? I know i wouldn't run with a group that tells me I have no chance at loot for the first three months i'm running, and by the same token, me being a regular in my guild, i wouldn't invite someone to raid with us and expect them to pass on loot, afterall they were involved in killing the boss that just dropped that loot! That is what is truly unfair, expecting people to help you for free, and denying them gear until you have all your BiS gear.

/roll=fair when running with adults who understand the idea of "don't be a dick"

@Jose

Also, why are Tanks 1 and 2 so good? They show up for more raids? Then they have better gear. They are more mature players? Then they understand the fairness of /roll, even if it doesn't go their way.

Plus, you now have a new third-string Tank with a great weapon. The fairness of /roll might give him more incentive to raid regularly, and maybe he'll give the guild some good word-of-mouth. That could lead to new, possibly better, recruits.

@Falcom:

"i wouldn't invite someone to raid with us and expect them to pass on loot, afterall they were involved in killing the boss that just dropped that loot!"

Being carried through a boss kill by a guild that wiped for a month on it (now that they have it on farm) is not "contributing". The /roll system discourages people from attending progression raids, and encourages the lowlives who only want to show up for farm nights.

EPGP/DKP or bust, IMO.

We use ranks, you attend over half the raids and you are a raider and under that you are a member. Raider > member > Trial.
We link items and all roll, people often pass for others with lesser gear.

Works well mostly for us.

He's not saying deny him all loot. And sometimes it's not about who wants what. BiS items are better served to

In the interest of guild progression, it's beneficial for more active members to be more geared. DKP (or my personal favorite, EPGP) take this into account, whereas /roll doesn't. Everyone is able to get gear, but if your core team isn't getting anything because of terrible rolls, and the folks who only show up once in a blue moon are getting it, then the guild is alot more likely to hit a gearcheck and get stuck.

Gearing up active members, or at least using a loot system which takes effort into account = better geared progression team = faster and more abundant boss kills = more loot for all.

And in regards to "If that's the case what's his incentive to run the raid if he knows he can't get any upgrades unless he is as well loved, or has a schedule that makes him just as available as tank 1 and 2"....Use a system with some balance, such as epgp. Who gets loot is a ratio of effort in and gear out. So even if he doesn't raid often, he's able to get some loot, without ignoring the fact that tank 1 and 2 there do alot more of the work.

Loot drama will always happen, but a fair, non randomized loot system can help.

"korey. "In the interest of guild progression, it's beneficial for more active members to be more geared." That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's simply a way for the rich to get richer and the poor to leave and then you have no raid at all. I don't have a problem with DKP because I think it's a fair way to go. You are not rewarding skill or usefulness, just longevity; it's the way unions work.

I believe the best way is /roll. I honestly wish the would get rid of need/greed and just make it pass or roll. I think this is especially true with the trading of BoP than will go on after 3.2. If the guy who can use it doesn't get the roll, he can buy it from the one who can.

Everyone always has a theory about the best way to distribute loot. Shockingly, this theory always favors the way they and their raid buddies like to play the game. What is some awesome about the RNG is that it f**ks everyone equally. But some people have tiny egos that can't handle that truth.

How is a non-randomized system "fair"?

People are biased. All of us. All.

/roll is simple. It means that if you're eligible to use an item, then you have an equal shot at getting it. Nobody has to decide who did more work, or who showed up for more raids, or who has been there longer. Just decide who can use the gear, and let fate decide.

You can't argue with /roll. Try it.

"/roll, you suck!"

...

Nope, no response. Nobody mad. Nobody labeled as a ninja. Simple.

Agreed, rolling is perfectly unbiased and rewards everyone who attends that particular raid. Yes this can mean that you may lose out on a particular gear piece multiple times, but I'd much rather be losing because of bad luck then because someone else has more DKP or because the loot council doesn't think I deserve it. With /roll the only drama you can have is over who gets to roll, and that can be settled easily through clearly defined rules.

To offset the problem of running streaks of badluck, my guild has adopted a loot token system. Any active raiding member can apply for a claim token on a specific gear piece. The GM and his assistant review the applications and approve where it seems fit. If you have a token, you get first dibs on that item. If there's two people with tokens on the same item, they roll against each other.

Of course, the best way to avoid loot drama is to simply not tolerate it. If you can be mature about how people are getting loot, too bad, so sad, there's the gquit. We don't need your kind here.

I've seen this exact strategy ruin a guild. They did /roll main spec before off-spec (this was in bc, so there was a bigger distinction) and only allowed you to receive 1 piece of loot per instance per day. This resulted in several BiS items from Hyjal being de'd - even when people offered voids in exchange for the item. It didn't take very long for the experienced raiders to realize they were being gipped and jump ship.

Or a slightly less extreme example. Just 2 weeks ago in a gearing run through 25 man naxx Journey's End dropped. The two people that rolled were one of the founding members who had never seen it drop before (bad luck happens and all that) and a druid that had been in the guild for 30 mins before naxx started... the newbie won, pissing off a lot of people when he was given the weapon.

The people that have an issue with dip and would like a /roll system, are the deadweight that wouldn't get gear in a dkp-type system. Dkp rewards those that show up... Only reason you should have issue with dkp, is if you wouldn't get loot in such a system. In which case you can only blame yourself for wanting loot that should go to someone who put in more time than you. Selfish people are the ones that favor a /roll system, putting their needs above those of the guild.

Weighted loot systems are only a problem for pugs and loot-whores. If you want to join a real progression guild and can't stand the thought of not instantly bestriding the loot priority list like a colossus of yore, you shouldn't be in a real progression guild.

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

Those who seem to favor DPK think of themselves as a "colossus of yore" and everyone else is just "deadweight". Thanks for proving our point, guys.

Thankfully, we don't need you anymore. Casual guilds are casually tearing through Naxx, and we'll be doing fine in Ulduar soon enough. No DKP needed. Show up... play your part... roll on some loot. Rinse, repeat.

End Content is a garden, dig it?

/roll is the best and easiest so long as everyone is mature enough to know when another person needs gear more than they do. (Meaning: you aren't in a guild full of failures.) Drama doesn't stem from what system is used, it stems from the individuals within the guild and what they seek. If your guild consists of people who want to challenge themselves and down content, it doesn't really matter what system is used. If, on the other hand, you're guild is full of 14 year olds who think they're entitled to Tier, any system will eventually cause drama.

@Worcester: I don't know about your experience in pugging Ulduar, but as a raid leader of a medium size guild who lost half of the raid group because of the /roll system, I can assure you it didn't worked for us. A gearcheck is a gearcheck, hardly puggable.

Now I'm running just 25-man pugs (Naxx, WG and OS) with, of course, the /roll system, and I haven't seen a piece of loot in 2 months (just the one I bought with the tokens), nor finished Naxxramas.

You may think /roll is the best system, but for us was a guildbreaking issue.

Look people, all Jose was pointing out is that /roll can produce drama just as well as any other system.

You can argue that /roll shouldn't produce drama, but the fact is, it can and does. Why? Because humans are human.

As someone who maintains 100% or close to raid attendance on a 4 or 5 day raiding schedule I would never even consider joining a guild that used /roll as a loot system. Gear should go to the person who will make best use of it, not whoever happens to be lucky.

IMHO DKP (and similar) systems are for somewhat casual to fairly serious but not bleeding-edge raiding guilds.

For top guilds loot council is generally the way to go. With the level of commitment and roster stability that these guilds require it is probably the ideal system. With a solid team that isn't bloated by a bunch of people with

Yes, /roll can create drama too. All systems do. However, while each system has a problem it also has advantages.

I seem to recall when the last time the DKP system came up, one of the posters on WOW.com (can't remember who or I'd credit him/her) pointed out that a DKP system was in essence "deficit looting" where the raid was "owed" a certain number of items over the number that dropped. This meant that later people who joined the raid would have no chance on items for their contributions for a long time until earlier people got what they were "owed."

It's why I like my own guild system: Every night of the raid, every person gets one (successful) need roll [If the person loses, he can try again on the next item], one successful tier roll [same as above] and the rest are greed rolls. Need > Greed. Only if nobody wants to greed on the item is it disenchanted.

Now is the system perfect? No. Indeed there are some rules I would like to change (such as the "Only roll need on the role you play... which can be hard on people called to fill an off-spec role). However because we have these rules, everyone has a chance if an item for their class drops, and nobody is in the situation of raiding with the knowledge that they won't get anything.

We don't have any guild drama so far. Yes I lost a roll or two to a PUG joining us, but we kept to the rules, and I know that our master looter won't screw me over when a roll goes my way.

dkp works well because it isn't biased either. A person who shows up to more raids gets more points and thus will be able to outbid someone who doesn't - which is fair.

I think any dkp needs systems in place to expire points to even things out so new players who have perfect attendance have a chance against veterans who may have so so attendance, but hundreds of points.