Why is respecting Chinese laws unfortunate?

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"It's always unfortunate when this sort of censorship happens, it's really not something you "

I'd not use the word unfortunate either for this fine example of state censorship, probably "pathetic" or "laughable" describes it well.

As for respecting Chinese laws, I've got to wonder how many people are unable to look at a pile of bones, I mean we all gut a chicken now and then so I doubt many people in China are going to be surprised that Humans have bones too :P

Without seeming like I'm trolling, the equivalent imagery in the western world would be a Cleveland Steamer on Christ on the Cross.

These items aren't being changed because people are 'scared'. Nobody is being harmed by respecting another country's laws in this regard, so your outrage is purely self-involved narcissistic rage.

Humans no have bones! Government say so!

By that line of reasoning, "Women no have boobs! American government say so!"
Take The Witcher for example, an european RPG.
In the original version there are naked women in the game.
The American version had them censored because it clashes with the morals the powers that be would like all americans to have.

Does that make the American government evil for applying censorship to a bunch of boobies? No really, no, it's just a different mentality.
Accept that different cultures think differently.

"Without seeming like I'm trolling.."
Don't vote him down, he's perfectly correct.

It's not what they do, but why they do it.
Not that I want to defend the "no boobies" policy in the US, but this "at least" is caused by religion, where people have a strong opinion about certain stuff.
On the other hand, I have not heard one single reason for not showing bones on Undead etc. except "the government/censorship agency doesn't like it".
Unless many Chinese really dislike bones, this is like the USA authorities censoring each and every bit of "sexy" media, even if the common US-American was a open-minded and tolerant individual.

Oh and don't think us European think we or our authorities are better, at least in Germany "violence" is your "boobies".

Nathanyel, religious censorship more reasonable because they "feel" strongly? Please.

In China it's the government oppressing their people. In the US it's the people oppressing themselves, and for what? Because a Roman emperor once gathered a few scriptures in a book and told everyone God wrote it.

The Chinese government leads a billion and one of the most important and influentual ecconomies in the world. God leads the blind.

@ Common sense, isn't.

I don't consider myself "oppressed" by myself because I don't want to see naked boobies in a game, driven by a religious desire not to think lustful thoughts (NO not at pixels but at the real life images in my mind they may evoke).

And you are so factually off the mark thinking a Roman emperor put a bunch of writings together and signed it "God". From Genesis to Revelation, the scriptures were written down over many hundreds of years and were considered "the Bible" in present form long before Constantine showed up (also, he was Byzantine, not Roman, but I guess you mean him as "emperor of Rome"). The manuscripts (literally thousands) exist and many are available in museums around the world, and they have been scientifically studied and dated. It's not even a question of religion, it's scientific fact that the writings of the Bible have been around for a very long time.

Your little conspiracy theory doesn't hold water. Please get your facts straight before you open your mouth.

Nih,

Somehow I think you're dead wrong. Why do I say that? Imagine a game in America that was filled with people "taking Cleveland Steamers on Jesus." No Christians would buy such a game. Hell...even if the governmnent forced the removal of these images, the game still wouldn't sell to those people. You don't need the government to protect people from games that offend them. They will not buy them, or request the removal of such images themselves...

Now, obviously, the Chinese people who are playing WoW are not that horribly offended by images of bones. This is supported by the fact that they went to other countries' uncensored servers when they couldn't play on Chinese servers. Why would they do that if these bones and heads were so terribly offensive to them?

So it comes down to this:

If Blizzard were just being nice and changing some things because they knew that Chinese culture would be more likely to enjoy the game? GREAT!

That's not the case, though. This is just an example of an oppressive government censoring things in order to keep up the appearance that they make the world happy and shiny.

Need more proof that China's censorship isn't all about their people's beliefs? Google the phrase "tiananmen square" on regular Google Images...then on Google China. See all those pictures of happy people waving flags and fireworks shows on China's version? Gee...it must be because protests are like "Cleveland Steamers on Christ on the Cross" to those sensitive Chinese people.

@ nih "Without seeming like I'm trolling, the equivalent imagery in the western world would be a Cleveland Steamer on Christ on the Cross."

LOL at ignorance.

Google "Robert Mapplethorpe Piss Christ"
That's *FUNDED* by the US gov't arts programs.

@Cambro
Just because I simplified as much as possible doesn't exactly make it wrong.

The simple fact is that the Bible you adore and cherish today contains less than 1% of it's source material. It was put together in a period of time where the Emperor desperately needed to bring together different cultures to keep his empire from collapsing upon itself in civil war, especailly the rising number of angry Christian who weren't all that happy about the abuse of previous years, at the same time meeting a strong demand within the higher soceity for a transformation of the emperor cult into a state based religion which wasn't centralized around a single person who would eventually die.

Now you may be both scared and dumb enough to look to religion to make you sleep better and that's your right un our soceity, but I've never understood why you loonies havn't demanded the full story instead of being content with the little you've got.

It's not like there aren't other scriptures or gospels out there, some of which might actually bring Jews, Moslems and Christians together. But you ignore them blindly because of your thousand year old dogmas.

Fools, the lot of you.

For the record:

OK, WoW in China is censored by government mandate. The Witcher in the US was self-censored to appeal to an American audience. These are very, very different ideas. Other responses explore this idea more deeply, so just read those again.

The Bible doesn't care about boobies. The American aversion to nudity is cultural. It comes from the Puritans who first settled here. If you need proof that Christianity does not care about nudity, just look at the Europeans.

Constantine was a Roman emperor. Yes, his reign marked the beginning of the east/west split that would eventually lead to the Byzantine empire, but Constantine himself was a Roman. There is no difference between "Roman Emperor" and "emperor of Rome."

The Old Testament was gathered writings developed over many years. The New Testament is a collection of writings culled from the plethora of Christian teachings from the time of Christ's death onwards. The process of selection was complicated, sometimes arbitrary, sometimes political, and very interesting. Constantine was involved, but he didn't select the books himself. Obviously, no New Testament writing can predate 33AD or so. The earliest known fragment is from ~130 AD. Complete manuscripts of the Gospels don't show up until ~250 AD.

Everyone in this thread should think about what there are saying before they go and say it.

Common sense, isnt,

You're getting off track here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a person making thier own choice to avoid things, or to censor their own lives. If a Christian doesn't want to go into a strip club, what's wrong with that? You may think their reason for it is silly, but at least it doesn't affect you. Just like you should be allowed the liberty to see a naked girl, they should be allowed the liberty to avoid it.

You've turned this into an argument about who's morals are better it seems.

The part you need to grasp is this, though: While some religious folks in our governement have overstep their bounds because of their own beliefs (placement of strip clubs, or half the rules of the FCC)...we still don't know what it's like to live in a country where the Government says out of the blue, "Porn is officially banned just because we say so."

Morality is an individual case, and I think your arguments are in favor of that thought. So if anything, I would think you'd be as outraged as I am at this blanket case of pointless censorship. It wasn't even given as a personal choice like the religious choices you seem to hate so much. It was forced upon an entire country by a room full of beuraucrats.

While for us in the west it may be odd to see such things getting censored it may make perfect sense in China.
We also have our things that just can't be done or shown without at least heavy debate about it.
what I do find strange is that this censorship comes now, a few years after WoW released in China. if it would have been like it since the start... but then again I really have no idea how chinese feel about (un)death and bones.

I just want to say, just because people think it's fine here doesn't mean people think the same there because of culture/religion

Elmo,

It makes it pretty hard to know what's "normal" in China when their government is regularly eliminatating their people's access to social networking and Blogging sites.

But I'm sure it's just because the government knew that all those blogs would be able how much the people love the Chinese government. They just didn't want to innundate the internet with all the praise that was sure to come...

*dismissive wank motion with my hand*

@impurezero
There is a big difference between a choice you make for yourself and advocating the choice of others, which is essentially what censorship is. Because censorship isn't the free choice of not going to a strip club because you think a big man in the sky will be upset with you, no, censorship is when you deny that free choice for others.

It's not a debate of morals either considering both a religious loonie and a Chinese official will agree on similar core rights and wrongs. You seem to bring the US into it and that's really a good example, because morally China and the US isn't that far appart.

You both torture and execute prisoners. Neither of you truely respect the sovereignty of other countries that get in your way. You both monitor your own citizens, and even go as far as to abduct citizens of your allied states illegally. Both your governmental systems are anti-democratic, China is worse on paper sure, but not counting votes that aren't handed to a winning party in an entire state isn't exactly something the US should pride itself for nor is the influence organized religion has on your government.

Really it's just a debate of faith. Christians believe boobs are wrong, the Chinese believe bones are wrong and I believe both groups should break free instead of being subdued but in terms of purpose I'd say the Chinese government wins since the censorship of WoW is just one small part of remaining one of the most powerful nations on earth compared to denying yourself boobs which is just stupid. :p

Oh, for crying out loud.

Country A censors x things.

Country B censors y things.

Country C censors z things.

There's nothing that says it's better or worse to censor x rather than y or z. Big deal. If the people hate the censoring enough, they'll rebel, or use one of the many options available to bypass the censorship. If they don't care, then they don't care. Censorship can happen for a variety of reasons, from *moral* to *legal* to *arbitrary*. You can make all you want out of it, but in the end, if the people it affects aren't bothered enough by it to do something, then that's their choice.

@impurezero

When you mention placement of strip clubs, which laws are you referring to? While I agree with your point in general, if you are speaking of laws which prevent them from being within a certain distance from a school, I would have to disagree with you on that. No matter your view on strip clubs, they are places that are sexual in nature, and thus have no business being, for example, right across the street from a school. I wouldn't want a porn shop across from a school either. Even if you can't see anything from the outside, it feels like a conflict of intrests/morals.

@Common sense, isn't

There are a number of problems with your arguments to this point.

You, of course, are free to believe and feel as you wish. But everybody else is, as well. Just because somebody believes in a stricter set of morals than you to (i.e. no boobies) does not make them "loonies" or "fools" (your words). Using words like that does nothing but lose you support.

Whether or not Constantine actually chose the books which appear in our current Bible is beside the point. The fact of the matter is that people believe that the current Bible is the proper one and that the books in it are the only books that should be. If you've done any research, you'll notice that different denominations of Christianity have a few more or less books in their respective Bibles. The reason is for debate over canon. Belief in one set or another as the total and complete extent of Biblical canon does not make them "loonies" or "fools". Whichever denomination they belong to has its reasons for regarding a certain book canon or not. The individuals may not know all of these reasons, but they know that they agree with (nearly) everything else their leaders say, so they probably believe this as well.

Also, I don't know where you're getting your information, but I don't see a lot of Christians ("loonies") going around torturing and executing. Just because Bush (I'm assuming you were talking about Bush) was a Christian and he said it was ok to torture prisoners does not mean that his views on the matter reflect the views of all Christians. Or even most Christians.

And finally, as was already pointed out by somebody else, things are not censored by the US, only in the US. Nobody is forcing you to stop going to strip clubs. Not wanting to because of a religious belief is perfectly acceptable. Seriously, there are people who don't eat pork because of a religious belief. I think we can both agree that eating pork is even more "acceptable" than looking at boobies. China does the censoring itself or forces companies like Blizzard to do it. If WoW was not censored, it would be illegal in China. Of course, there were people trying to get onto foreign servers when it got shut down for a bit. They enjoyed the game and wanted to continue playing it. What they were doing was also illegal. There were likely a lot more people who weren't willing to break the law just so they could play WoW. These people are no doubt filling Blizzard's coffers right now despite the censorship because they are happy to be playing the game.

And really, when it comes down to it, the censorship of bones and skulls may seem stupid, but at the same time, who cares? It doesn't really alter the game at all. It's an adjustment to the art assets. Granted, using a bag graphic as a replacement for any skull or head is a bit silly, and doesn't really fit in some places, but it still really doesn't matter. The gameplay and overarching story are still intact. Those are the important things.