Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOut with the old
by Mike Schramm 
Aug 5th 2009 at 1:00PM
In response to a what I'd call a troll on the forums, Zarhym gives some thoughtful insight to a problem that's been raising its head more and more often as the game gets older and older: items and achievements that once required lots of time and/or skill to obtain are becoming easier than ever to get. Usually, when this topic comes up, we're talking about epics, but that's not always the case. Here, the item in question is the Warlock mount. It used to require a long quest chain to obtain, but after a series of decisions on Blizzard's part, you can now train it right away from the trainer as soon as you hit the required level.Zarhym says that it's just part of the game's evolution -- originally, the dreadsteed quests were part of the endgame, and just like the Hunter Rhok'delar quests, were designed to show that players had reached the pinnacle of the class. But nowadays, level 60 isn't what it used to be, and the best way to do those quests is to have a higher level character tag along with you. That's not how Blizzard designed it (and it definitely doesn't fit within the "lore" of the quest), so they ditched it.
That questline is still in, just not required, but some questlines and rewards are obviously removed from the game completely -- their achievement no longer represents an equivalent challenge, so Blizzard decides to take them out. And that really seems the best way to do it -- though it's always a shame when today's players can't experience the quests the same way veteran players did back in the day, the alternative would be to have them play through content that makes no sense, and no one wants that. As Zarhym says, there will always be new challenges to take on.
Filed under: Hunter, Warlock, Patches, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
Jaye Aug 5th 2009 1:25PM
I've been playing 5 years and my husband has played 3. We've talked about how nice it would be if Blizzard create 1-2 realms that have "old school" type leveling up to 60 and then leave BC and WoLK as is. I know I'd play there.
I also think it would be nice if they made achievements for "classic content" worth something. Heck, the achievement points for anything worth something would be nice but anyway.... For instance, as someone who loves alts, I would spend a 100 achievement points in second for an "inn" you can set up anywhere. I don't know....but having the achievement points be worth something would help.
Or what about the old quest lines, like the ones mentioned in this post, are worth achievements all on their own.
I don't know but I DO know I would play on a realm where leveling 1-60 was "old school" and or if there was a way to play the "classic" content 1-60 on current realms the "old school" way if you got some cool mount or something for doing it that way.
Firestride Aug 5th 2009 1:33PM
I'm right there with you. For those of us who missed out on the original endgame, it seems more interesting and complex than what's available in Wrath. I'm one of the many who long for a vanilla server where I can go participate in the level-60 endgame.
Naix Aug 5th 2009 1:43PM
"If Blizzard create 1-2 realms that have "old school" type leveling up to 60 and then leave BC and WoLK as is."
Blizzard has already stated they are not going to do that. If you want the old school experience I suggest leveling a toon to 60 and turning off the XP, not buying at glyphs, and only going for gear in instances. Why anyone would want to do this is beyond comprehension.
usagizero Aug 5th 2009 2:11PM
I'm not sure why you just don't start a guild with that as the intention and turn off xp at 60, and not use glyphs/bc gear/etc. Although you'll quickly find out how much is nostaigia and how much isn't as fun as you think. Some of the older instances were interesting, but BRD in old gear was a pain and so long to finish.
tatsumasa Aug 5th 2009 2:35PM
why people want this is because of pride in accomplishment. this is something not understood by people who are only interested in getting the same rewards as those of us who worked for them, simply because they pay their subscription fee too. and people like me, who enjoy the feeling of turning in the swift flight form quest after putting in all the effort of doing the long and challenging chain, are called elitists for this fact.
the game expands and evolves, but that doesn't mean that old content should be made trivial. some things should just be left the way they are in the game. i'm sure i'll get down-voted for feeling this way, but in my opinion the reason people get so bored so quickly in the game and run out of end-game content so quickly, and the reason blizzard is feeling rushed to bring us more and more content is because they make old content pointless and a chore instead of the adventure it used to be.
Gimmlette Aug 5th 2009 3:34PM
"I don't know but I DO know I would play on a realm where leveling 1-60 was "old school" and or if there was a way to play the "classic" content 1-60 on current realms the "old school" way if you got some cool mount or something for doing it that way."
Spectacular Death on Llane server has been doing all WOW content since December of 2007. At over 100 members strong, we hit a nerve with people who want to experience the old content as well as the new.
2 months ago, I got the leaf that let me finish Rok'Delar. Yes, I'm a level 80 and it took longer to fly to the various demon locations than it did to kill them. 3 weeks ago, my second in command did the whole quest chain in an evening, the day after we were in MC and the leaf dropped and he won it. He got to needing the mature black dragon sinew so 3 of us dropped what we were doing and paid Onyxia a visit. I've got Arrowsong and he has the Nesingwary 4000 so Rok'Delar is purely for show and to say we did it, even if it is nowhere nearly the quest it used to be.
I remember helping warlock friends get their horse. Some things, while nice to experience, need to evolve. The game changes and with it, the dynamics. I would love to have an Amani War Bear but I understand why it was removed.
Still, as several people have pointed out, the class specific quest chains were a lot of fun to do, particularly as they yielded a unique reward. I like the ones that have at least a dozen steps to them because the average player isn't going to be interested in continuing it. I still think a 15 step quest chain that would let you kill same faction gold sellers when they run into IF or SW I would do in a heartbeat.
Krautwurst Aug 5th 2009 1:28PM
I think this is an interesting issue, but one not easily solved. A lot of time and resources are dedicated to end-game content now, and personally i think Blizzard should slow down. Every few months game mechanics are being drastically changed, and while there were changes in patches past, patches these days tend to change the way a class works entirely. With such large changes, I find it hard to believe Blizzard could possibly have time to code in quests like these, as the people doing them would probably outgear the quest itself within a couple weeks, and it would be just another grind for loot that may be replaced in a week.
Personally, I feel like Blizzard needs to create quests that are difficult enough that they will remain a challenge for a while at least, while simultaneously slowing down on how much gear they are making avaliable to players. I think this would add more longevity to the game as well as make things more interesting and allow Blizzard to refocus some of their efforts on filling in the gaps when it comes to interesting quests, challenges, and things to do, so that end-game itself doesn't become "just a grind".
Naix Aug 5th 2009 1:46PM
"A lot of time and resources are dedicated to end-game content now, and personally i think Blizzard should slow down. Every few months game mechanics are being drastically changed, and while there were changes in patches past, patches these days tend to change the way a class works entirely."
It's called game evolution. With every evolution being better than the last we embrace change.
Think about it this way. You never hear people exclaiming "Man I wish I could live back int he day when I had to hunt my food, hope the water i was drink was fresh, and the life expectancy was 40! That would be so great!"
Krautwurst Aug 5th 2009 4:59PM
Your point is pretty subjective. Each evolution is a double-edged sword, with everyone eventually disliking one of the parts of the evolution. Also, this is assuming the ultimate end is better than the beginning. Certainly, in some ways, you can say that 3.2 is better than 1.x, but in other ways, it seems more diluted in certain areas (to some anyway).
Although the game hasn't technically lost anything, save for a few limited time only mounts, achievements, etc., and in fact makes things for players that did experience those things in earlier patches a lot easier and gives them a lot of new things to do, players that weren't around then just don't have the same opportunity of immersion with the current patch.
Personally, I like what they are doing, and yes, there are a lot of fun, time consuming things for players to be doing, but it would be nice if Blizz would more seriously consider retooling some old style quest lines.
Cyrus Aug 5th 2009 1:37PM
It seems like making some lower-level stuff more accessible and removing other lower-level stuff that was always meant to be an exceptional accomplishment is generally good, even if "lower-level" now includes what was once the endgame. But that's a separate issue from class-specific content being edged out of existence. That *is* too bad. Surely by now they could work out a way to put in class-specific stuff that doesn't involve combat, and/or scales in difficulty to match your level, right? Some kind of NPC that copies your own character like against Herald Volazj or the Inner Turmoil in that quest in the Howling Fjord. Some NPC with abilities based on who's fighting him, like Nefarian or Malacrass. Something with a mind control ability, so you fight your group members. (And ensure that it's done by a group by requiring more than one person to summon the mob... or something.) Something in BGs, like a quest to kill X players of your own class, or win a BG WITHOUT killing anyone of your own class.
A bigger reason class-specific content is fading is probably because, as someone observed in another recent post, it's a lot of work for only 10 percent of characters to experience. But it's still cool to have some stuff like that, all the current stuff like that is irrelevant, and the fact that existing stuff like that is obselete is a poor excuse.
Al in SoCal Aug 5th 2009 1:38PM
Though I agree that new content and hard-modes have been added it still would be nice to have class-specific epic quests. Homogenizing content is a way to streamline development and downsize developers, but it makes rolling a warlock, or a druid, etc that much more interesting IMO.
Manatank Aug 5th 2009 1:43PM
I'd like to express my opposition for class specific quests. I feel they needlessly take away from development time for the benefit of 1/10th of the classes. This time would be better spent, in my opinion, on content for all.
I'd also like to point out that some of us play this game for very different reasons. I do not identify with my "character" in any way. I have no interest in the lore, or fantasy settings. I enjoy coordinated team efforts (raiding/battle grounds), and choose to play WoW because of it's polish and depth. Blizzard has always impressed me with their game design and underwhelmed me with their story telling. As such, I'd prefer they focus on where they shine.
I want tough challenges that I and my friends can overcome. I do not care if people who don't enjoy a challenge have loot and rewards. It does not diminish my experience that someone else was able to obtain the same item I did with less effort. I didn't do it for the item, I did it for the challenge.
If there was a game out there that had raid style coordination and a WoW style combat system without gear progression or character leveling I would play it instead. I have no interest in the RPG portion of WoW. I play WoW for the endgame challenges, and the social aspect.
Darthregis Aug 5th 2009 2:06PM
Well, you may not care about lore, or class, your character, etc., but some people do. And some of the class-specific quests can be a good bit of fun.
That being said, I would suggest maybe making the class-specific quests optional. Something like maybe doing the (epic?) quest chain will net you a free mount, or you can just go to the trainer and pay whatever amount of gold for it. One lets you get more involved and one lets you carry on.
WoWie Zowie Aug 5th 2009 1:48PM
but i did experience challenging endgame. on my mage. and i did get the excitement from doing hard content at level 60.
now that i rolled a lock alt with heirloom shoulders and chestpiece, you think i wanna go running around old azeroth for hours on end to get my epic horse? no thank you. i'd rather spend my time doing one of the myriad time consuming activities of the current patch.
leave the memories of the past in the past.
Zan Aug 5th 2009 1:49PM
Well I guess that frees up 3 bank slots now that I can toss those quest items.
KillerKarl Aug 5th 2009 1:52PM
I miss the old days of runnig Dire Maul when a mage dinged 60 in the guild in order to get them the highest level of water.
Thyago Aug 5th 2009 1:53PM
Life today isn't challenging! I wish we still were nomads hunting huge animals with almost only our bare hands! Supermarkets... what a joke!
I guess "old people" will often complain that the "young people" have it sooo much easier... in WoW or RL alike :P
Sindragosa Aug 5th 2009 2:07PM
I've beaten this drum before but:
Scale it up to a flying mount. Let the quest award Expert Riding instead of Journeyman. Expert riding is now worth 600g, about the same that Journeyman was worth in Vanilla WoW.
Also Expert riding is now available at level 60, the same as Journeyman in Vanilla.
And change the Dreadsteed and Charger into a land/air hybrid scalable mount like The Headless Horseman's Mount: Let it be a flying mount in Northrend/Azeroth, but only if you've done it through the quests.
People who have purchased the mount from the trainers should need to do the quests in order to convert the Dreadsteed/Charger into a flying mount.
That way everyone is happy.
tresser Aug 5th 2009 2:11PM
the day they changed the mats from 35 black dragonscales to 3 is when the warlock mount became trivial....not when they handed them out for free.
jaz Aug 5th 2009 2:12PM
Along the same lines... you used to have to grind to get the different mounts. I remember going through the trouble to get the tiger mount as a human. There I was, a mage on a tiger and, yes, I thought I was cool and just a little different.
New patch comes along and BOOM... all that time and work to get that to stand out gone.
Pissed me off. I mean, let some of the little stuff like that be unique...