Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsOut with the old
by Mike Schramm 
Aug 5th 2009 at 1:00PM
In response to a what I'd call a troll on the forums, Zarhym gives some thoughtful insight to a problem that's been raising its head more and more often as the game gets older and older: items and achievements that once required lots of time and/or skill to obtain are becoming easier than ever to get. Usually, when this topic comes up, we're talking about epics, but that's not always the case. Here, the item in question is the Warlock mount. It used to require a long quest chain to obtain, but after a series of decisions on Blizzard's part, you can now train it right away from the trainer as soon as you hit the required level.Zarhym says that it's just part of the game's evolution -- originally, the dreadsteed quests were part of the endgame, and just like the Hunter Rhok'delar quests, were designed to show that players had reached the pinnacle of the class. But nowadays, level 60 isn't what it used to be, and the best way to do those quests is to have a higher level character tag along with you. That's not how Blizzard designed it (and it definitely doesn't fit within the "lore" of the quest), so they ditched it.
That questline is still in, just not required, but some questlines and rewards are obviously removed from the game completely -- their achievement no longer represents an equivalent challenge, so Blizzard decides to take them out. And that really seems the best way to do it -- though it's always a shame when today's players can't experience the quests the same way veteran players did back in the day, the alternative would be to have them play through content that makes no sense, and no one wants that. As Zarhym says, there will always be new challenges to take on.
Filed under: Hunter, Warlock, Patches, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
impurezero Aug 5th 2009 2:14PM
I for one am starting a guild full of people who are level capping themselves at 60, 70 or 80 in order to experience the content as it was originally meant to be experienced. Personally, I'm always a bit bothered by the general belief that the older content is worthless because there is something newer out.
I just wish I could have turned off my experience sooner. Right now, I'm still running old school raids, trying to build up my T2 and Brood gearsets, but I've managed to level to 68 without ever setting foot inside Outlands. Fortunately, I've discovered that my level doesn't matter much as long as I'm still sporting old-school gear (except for the "Can you tank Seth" whispers...no, I can't.). And yes...I just finished my Epic Charger quest last night, and personally think that was a fun questline. Didn't have anyone run me at all. (Next up...the Shifting Sands questline.)
Anyway...I guess my real point is that there is still fun to be had in the old-school content. I've done every classic dungeon except DM North and West, and BWL is my final raid to do. I've never felt like I've boringly breezed through because I've always had gear appropriate for the dungeon. I've never accepted a run-through just to get a dungeon achievement or to level up faster.
Experiencing old content in a fun way (I know, I know...it's never going to be "exactly" the same as Pre-BC times, but that's not my point) is still entirely possible. You just have to go into it with that mentality from the start.
danawhitaker Aug 5th 2009 3:43PM
I have a couple guild members you can buy off me. I'm kidding for the most part. Sorta. I leveled to almost 67 just on old world quests, and then to 76 on just the Outlands content. I didn't do much raiding though. I mean, logistically, especially on lower-population servers, finding enough people to do old world raids at level isn't feasible. There aren't enough people willing to sacrifice end game to do that. And really, I don't either. I like to experience that content, but I'm content to do AQ40 at 80 with a group of 10 people rather than trying to do it at 60.
And remember, you'll never be able to fully replicate the experience of end game content at level, because of the ways that the talent trees have evolved from when the content was first introduced. Your abilities will still be slightly different.
But I have a couple guild members and friends who insist on trying to run all the old tier upgrade quests and stuff and it's frustrating to run old stuff with them because almost no one in the guild has any interest in actually getting all that gear (let alone do most people have anywhere to *store* that many sets of gear). If end game still stopped at 60, I'd be trying to gear to max at that level. But there's so much better gear when you finish old world and go to Outlands, and then when you leave Outlands and go to Northrend, that it seems almost pointless to me to collect outdated gear that can be easily replaced in a few dungeon runs through expansion content.
Then again, I suppose people might say the same thing about me running up 40 exalted reputations. We all have our quirks in the game. I guess I see running old content at 80 as the best of both worlds. You still get to experience it, but you also get to experience the thrill of running heroics and new raids with people and experience those challenges. It would be horrible if they started completely removing old dungeons or raids. I'd be angry at that. But at least for the most part they leave everything there for people to explore.
impurezero Aug 5th 2009 5:48PM
I certainly see where you're coming from, but maybe I've just been fortunate. I've had pretty good luck gathering up some new friends who love old school content.
As for the difference in the raiding experience because of the talent trees, etc...sure. I know that. But it's still not quite "as" different as running it as an 80. If you bring a bunch of 60s into ZG, you still have to make sure someone is pulling up Sons of Hakkar and that people are getting poisoned or you will absolutely wipe. I've seen a group of a few 80s just DPS him down so quickly that it didn't even matter, though. Besides...I've noticed that it's mostly gear that matters. I may be level 68, but since I'm sitting in T1 gear, I still have to put in some effort in the old school raids.
I know it's not exactly the same as playing Pre-BC...my only point is that some of us think it's still fun and worth experiencing without being completely OP in T8 gear.
On a similar note, there's a huge difference between playing a dungeon with a group of 5 level appropriate characters...and being run through by an 80. I have several level 80 friends who have literally never once played through half the vanilla instances. This seems like a bit of a shame to me.
High end content will always be there for me. Even when the next expansion hits and everyone else is getting their Icecrown-destroying Maelstrom greens, I can level cap myself to 80 and have a blast progressing through Ulduar with like minded people. Low level content, on the other hand, gets trivialized when your gear gets too high above it.
I don't know. Some people agree with me, and I know plenty who don't (I've heard so many times from people in game, "Just get to 80, stupid...end game is where it's at" or "Why are you raiding MC? Outlands greens will just replace it you moron."), but this is how I like to play the game. :)
Rubitard Aug 5th 2009 2:29PM
I revel in dumbed-down content as the game progresses. I'm a casual player who enjoys time with a very wonderful, but ultimately casual guild who does 5 man content for the most part endgame-wise, and splinters off for the occasional big boy raids. I loved it when Kara was made accessible to us slobs and I could see what it was like for the more hardcore players. I still haven't seen the inside of Black Temple, and may not until I'm lvl 90 or 100 or Elite or whatever comes along in the future. And I'm cool with that. I just don't have the time to devote to the game to be as accessible (or even as good with spell rotations) for cutting-edge raid content. So, count me in as loving WoW when it gets easy. Nothing like spending a relaxing evening chatting with friends from across the globe and picking away at content that's fun, but nothing too terribly difficult.
bob Aug 5th 2009 2:53PM
I love trying to solo old instances. Its currently my favorite part of the game.
HappyFunNorm Aug 5th 2009 2:29PM
I wouldn't mind them expiring outdated content and creating new content so much... except for te fact that almost all (all lately, I think) of the new material is added at the top levels. I'd like to see some new Duskwood quests that relate or differenciate the undead there from the undead in Northrend. What I'd especially love to see are quest chains that take you from 1-80, or at least last from 1-80 with some siginficant payoff for completing the whole thing. I also agree with the others that we really need some new class quests. It's just wrong that the church seems to now completely ignore the fact that I'm a priest.
Myria Aug 5th 2009 2:43PM
Except it isn't out with the old, it'd be one thing if it was. The old is still there, empty, rotting, and decaying. You can hardly miss the depressing state of it and weep a little inside for once was.
And, saddest of all, even in its undead state -- left fallow by Blizz -- much of the old world vastly outshines the new.
Come on, Blizz, either put old content out of its misery (starting everyone at 55 would kill old world Azeroth dead and, depressingly, thrill most of the playerbase at the same time) or do something with it besides making everyone go back to Org/Stormwind/Ironforge only to use the AH.
bob Aug 5th 2009 3:05PM
Of course, this too. If they continually refuse to update old content then they might as well start new characters at a higher level. Especially if you have an 80 already.
Some of the old content could easily be update. Why are there no Ley Lines cracked up in the old world? That could be a really interesting quest line prepping new players for Northrend.
Myria is right here, sending people back to the old world just for the auction house is not keeping the old world alive. I'm not a programmer but I really can't see how adding/extending quests could be that hard. Just having people have to travel to parts of the old world for high level quests would be great. Northrend is on the same planet as the old world content. Why do crystallized elements only drop in Northrend?
Shockbit Aug 5th 2009 7:47PM
@bob: I agree, although there are *some* Northrend quests that send you to old Azeroth (one in Sholazar Basin that sends you to Un'Goro and the Black Knight chain from the Argent Tournament sends you to Westfall). Plus there are the holiday events like Brewfest that even have you entering old dungeons.
But it is sad the state of decay that a lot of the old content is in. I'm really hoping for the fabled "Emerald Dream" content (maybe part of the Maelstrom expansion?) to activate all those old portals in all-but-forgotten zones. Or what about the Titan city in Tanaris? Or many other examples of stuff that was meant to be in the game from the beginning.
And I've always wanted a warlock Dreadgryphon or something along those lines. Or how about race specific flying mounts? Mechanogryphon anyone??? (at least I have my flying rug.)
Jaye Aug 5th 2009 3:12PM
tatsumasa, I agree 110%!! The game itself has become so geared for a rush for the current end-game that I believe many have forgotten, or never know, the many great reasons for taking their time. Some of the quests had/have great storyline. Once they get to the current end-game, as tatsumasa said, there is little left to do and the push for MORE is there for Blizzard.
Now, I am NOT saying that the content from 60-80 is not enjoyable. I love playing this game otherwise I would not still be playing it 5 years later. I'm just saying that the foundation of the game, the Classic content, is being made to be, again as tatsumasa said so well, "old content pointless and a chore instead of the adventure it used to be." I think this is a mistake for it IS the foundation.
I know many people who have played a long time and even some who have not played that long would like to have that challenge and sense of accomplishment that many feel is lacking is some of the game now. Not all...but some.
I too will most likely continue to be shot down in my opinion as Firestride and tatsumasa have been. But that is ok. Part of what makes WoW so great a game is all the different people who play it.
Pamela Aug 5th 2009 3:13PM
As someone who went through the process of completing Thunderfury pre-BC (pre-Naxx even), I think I have a fair perspective on epic quests and the effort that go into them. And I wholeheartedly believe this change is nothing but good for the game.
As has already been stated, this content was already dead. Before, you had an epic adventure in max level instances. In 3.1, that was just not realistically going to happen, so you had two real options.
1. A high level friend steamrolls the content for you. Perhaps better in the socialization aspect, but gameplay and challenge wise, it's not substantially different from just training it.
2. If you don't have a high level friend available, you probably just buy a horse from Elwynn and call it a day, since the chances of getting level 60 people together for a group, much less convincing them to help you with your quest, is pretty slim.
This "change" is less a change and more an acknowledgement.
People who get mad about having worked for things need to get over themselves. Getting Thunderfury made me a veritable god of tanking for a few months, and I still keep it in my bags and pull it out to show off now and then. I got plenty of mileage about it. Things change in MMOs and you can't invest up front and be awesome forever. You have to keep up, whether raiding or PVPing or anything. Drop the tired sense of entitlement.
Khremloc Aug 5th 2009 3:29PM
Still waiting for them to add a skip tutorial button when you create your character so that you can go straight into end-game.
loganic Aug 5th 2009 3:47PM
I've read a lot of these posts and I think that the core of this issue hasn't been addressed. Basically what many of us "miss" is when the old content didn't used to suck. Blizz has answered the call of I-want-get-to-the-new-content-faster-easier and people are in a rush to get to 80. I don't mind or dislike being 80, but guess what, I, like a lot of people, hate getting there, especially 1-60. I can't be bothered to do the longer quest lines, because most of the time, I'm overleveled for it and can get better gear in the next area. I've run maybe one instance in a group before 60, and had an 80 run me through one or two. Old content is, paraphrasing, decaying, old, decrepit, and all around suck.
Yes, for everyone who says that if I like my instances so much I should find myself a group. Yes I could, but why would I bother when I could get better gear and level faster if I just quest for the same two hours.
What I am saying is that when leveling took time, when it was worth it to do the harder quests for half decent gear, or when instancing would level you almost as fast as questing, but the gear pay off was worth it. What I am saying is that, it was more fun when the older content wasn't quite as obsolete and underused. I'm saying it was more fun when you got to choose the way you wanted to level (and don't tell me instancing, and I mean regular instances are still worth it, because they're a joke now).
Level is too fast, for it to be anything but a race to 80. I think that needs to be changed.
I also do think that new quest lines, especially ones that encouraged you to use the alternative content, including old level 60 end game content, and that followed you in levels, especially till you hit 80, and that provided you with a unique and well worth it epic or enchantment.
so A) I think that the speed of leveling discourages most people from running, which in turns makes it harder and discourages many of those people who wouldn't mind, keeping old school instances mostly for the hard core.
B) I think there needs to be new quest lines, chains, achievement (that encourage other alternative content, including instances) that not only make leveling easier and more enjoyable, but also pays off seriously well for 80s. (so yes that quest line to 80 which ends in epics and/or enchantments.
C) Finally, Yes, I think there needs to be a way for old players to not have to play the entire content. Maybe 2500 or 3000 achievment points could be spent to make to give you a level 50 character of any class.
I know that I'm not the first to say some of these things, but I hope I've been able to say them solidly.
Hal Aug 5th 2009 4:15PM
There's still a lot of fun to be had in the old content. It's not like it's just gone.
But you know why people are in such a rush to reach 80? That's where the majority of the player base is! If 75% of a server capped themselves at 60, then people would be reluctant to head to Outland and Northrend because there wouldn't be anybody to play with. There are a lot of factors that make levelling 1-60 unpleasant (poor quest/zone design being something that Blizzard has really improved since WoW's release), but the biggest thing is just loneliness! This game just isn't as fun when you're playing entirely by yourself.
ash Aug 5th 2009 4:15PM
I think what Zarhym wrote here sum it up best: "If you've had fun achieving certain things in the game like I have -- including completing that quest chain as I did all those years ago -- nothing should tarnish your memory of those experiences."
I remember soloing most of the mount quest for my pally and it was totally worth it and nothing will take away from that. I started gathering ingredients and gold right before BC came out. I wanted to get it as soon as possible and with everyone in Outland because of BC I didn't finish until around 63-64. I still remember the epic fight in Dire Maul against that tree and the horse it spawned, the memorizing of all the pulls in Scholo and Strat (and DM!) scrounging for ingredients and all the effort was worth it. I don't spite anyone who gets it now, going through the lore and working to do it myself is what gave it worth, even to the point where I was kind of kicked from my first guild because of it. I'm just sorry Blizz doesn't have something as epic for new players nowadays, but its the journey getting there that they are missing out on the most.
Killer Aug 5th 2009 4:41PM
Hands down the most epic and the longest questline I ever took part in was the Dungeon 1 upgrade line to Dungeon 2. Personally I carried the last quest for a couple years before I got lucky enough to get the vest off Drakkisath.
impurezero Aug 5th 2009 5:50PM
I'm still doing this questline. I need the D1 items off Drak, the Baron and the boss in Scholo still. :(
Zarfay Aug 5th 2009 6:17PM
Why does everyone at wow.com assume that a post shares an opinion that you don't is a troll post?
yolhuani Aug 5th 2009 6:11PM
For me it's not so much that it's easy as that new players don't know how hard it was and so . . there's no respect for what you accomplished. It's been a while since I took a warlock or pally to finish his/her mount quest (although I just finished it on my 74 pally alone--I wanted the tabard, darn it.). But when I do, I make sure they know that it used to be hard.
yolhuani Aug 5th 2009 6:28PM
My problem is not that the quests are so easy not, but that new players don't realize how hard stuff was . . how much we accomplished. They aren't impressed enough with the 133tness of old players. :D