How the "Summon Memory" fight in the Trial of the Champion should have been done

I was already aware that Trial of the Champion sees you fighting a bunch of champions on horseback, then getting either Eadric the Pure of High Confessor Paletress. We, luckily, got the latter. I like Paletress. She's an intriguing character as well as an epitome of goodness who's not afraid to fight for her beliefs. She also has the coolest attack in the Trial: she summons the memory of a past encounter. This was the bit I was waiting for and when Onyxia appeared, I was momentarily stunned.
I fought Onyxia for the first time when the need for a key was removed. I have this little fixation for finding/hunting/chatting with/killing dragons. It was a bugged encounter I thoroughly enjoyed both from a lore and raiding perspective. So, Memory-Onyxia was raining down destruction upon us and it occurred to me that the fight wasn't familiar. This memory didn't use any of Onyxia's key abilities or attacks. In essence, this encounter was just a generic 82 elite given Onyxia's skin.
I was gutted.
I know it sounds like I'm whining and taking it all out of context, but the idea of fighting such bosses, many whom I will never raid in their 'natural environments' was very appealing. At the same time there was that chance of stepping back into the past and reliving a classic encounter. A way of remembering how your toon has changed over the years and summing up some of their most heroic achievements against impossible odds. It's reminding players that, even if they just dinged 80 and only did the most basic dungeons, they are just as qualified to stand up and fight Arthas as guilds like Ensidia and Vodka.
In an elitist world, the contest aspect of the Coliseum would be in full force. Completing all the content would be a prerequisite. You would literally need to show Tirion, Thrall and Varian Wrynn your strips before you could be allowed to go anywhere near Icecrown Citadel. Instead, in keeping with Blizzard's "endgame for all policy", the Coliseum is more lore-based than anything else.
So how could the Summon Memory encounter have been improved? The randomness of the encounter is the bit they got right. After all, how many people have downed Algalon? I wonder how much of these percentages are random chance or whether they are some how tied to the Achievements of the group?
My common sense tells me the chances of getting Onyxia over, say, Illidan is more than likely tied to the kind of boss, the level/complexity of the content and when it was released. Ignis and Cyanigosa are probably going to be more common simply because everybody and their guildies has done Wrath content like Violet Hold and are moving through Ulduar at the moment.
The other aspect of this is whose memory Paletress is summoning. After all, we all started at different times during the lifecycle of WoW and most of us have pugged certain content. What happens if you get the Memory of Vashj, for example, but never ventured into Serpentshrine Cavern or Archimonde but never went into Hyjal? Yes the ability to play against different bosses does make the encounter an interesting one, even if this is only on a physical level, but raids and bosses need more than that. It would be nice, for example, if each Memory had one of their original abilities rather than spamming the same spells and Waking Nightmare regardless of the skin it was wearing. A little originality in the combat would really elevate the fight, transforming it from something mundane and almost boring into something genuinely spectacular.
My ideal example of how this would work goes like this. Rather than summon a memory, Paletress would send you back into your own memory. The boss you got would depend on which one all of your groups members has defeated the most, making to pick one you all had encountered. You would find yourself in that boss's environment (so if you got Gruul you'd find yourself in his Lair in Blade's Edge Mountains), except there would be the feel of an illusion about it. You might still be able to see the banners and the important NPCs in the stands or hear their clapping. That aside, it would be Gruul but for the 'Memory of' prefix.
He would have all of his unique abilities as well as Waking Nightmare and would be his original level. If Blizzard really wanted to be smart, they would debuff your character with a spell called 'Regression' in which you had the same kind of level and abilities you did when the content containing that boss came out. If you were to, by chance, die the illusion would shatter and Paletress would allow you to have another go, even though you stood the chance of getting a different boss. It's an idea ripe with promise but one which will, sadly, never be primarily due to technical limitations.
The idea of summoning a memory of a past battle seemed so good on paper. A chance to do something really interesting. Blizzard could have taken the original bosses and made them the highlight of the 5-man content of the Patch. Instead, they just recycled their skins and wrapped them around a standard elite. When they could have made it much more, well, memorable.
I was gutted.
I know it sounds like I'm whining and taking it all out of context, but the idea of fighting such bosses, many whom I will never raid in their 'natural environments' was very appealing. At the same time there was that chance of stepping back into the past and reliving a classic encounter. A way of remembering how your toon has changed over the years and summing up some of their most heroic achievements against impossible odds. It's reminding players that, even if they just dinged 80 and only did the most basic dungeons, they are just as qualified to stand up and fight Arthas as guilds like Ensidia and Vodka.
In an elitist world, the contest aspect of the Coliseum would be in full force. Completing all the content would be a prerequisite. You would literally need to show Tirion, Thrall and Varian Wrynn your strips before you could be allowed to go anywhere near Icecrown Citadel. Instead, in keeping with Blizzard's "endgame for all policy", the Coliseum is more lore-based than anything else.
So how could the Summon Memory encounter have been improved? The randomness of the encounter is the bit they got right. After all, how many people have downed Algalon? I wonder how much of these percentages are random chance or whether they are some how tied to the Achievements of the group?
My common sense tells me the chances of getting Onyxia over, say, Illidan is more than likely tied to the kind of boss, the level/complexity of the content and when it was released. Ignis and Cyanigosa are probably going to be more common simply because everybody and their guildies has done Wrath content like Violet Hold and are moving through Ulduar at the moment.
The other aspect of this is whose memory Paletress is summoning. After all, we all started at different times during the lifecycle of WoW and most of us have pugged certain content. What happens if you get the Memory of Vashj, for example, but never ventured into Serpentshrine Cavern or Archimonde but never went into Hyjal? Yes the ability to play against different bosses does make the encounter an interesting one, even if this is only on a physical level, but raids and bosses need more than that. It would be nice, for example, if each Memory had one of their original abilities rather than spamming the same spells and Waking Nightmare regardless of the skin it was wearing. A little originality in the combat would really elevate the fight, transforming it from something mundane and almost boring into something genuinely spectacular.
My ideal example of how this would work goes like this. Rather than summon a memory, Paletress would send you back into your own memory. The boss you got would depend on which one all of your groups members has defeated the most, making to pick one you all had encountered. You would find yourself in that boss's environment (so if you got Gruul you'd find yourself in his Lair in Blade's Edge Mountains), except there would be the feel of an illusion about it. You might still be able to see the banners and the important NPCs in the stands or hear their clapping. That aside, it would be Gruul but for the 'Memory of' prefix.
He would have all of his unique abilities as well as Waking Nightmare and would be his original level. If Blizzard really wanted to be smart, they would debuff your character with a spell called 'Regression' in which you had the same kind of level and abilities you did when the content containing that boss came out. If you were to, by chance, die the illusion would shatter and Paletress would allow you to have another go, even though you stood the chance of getting a different boss. It's an idea ripe with promise but one which will, sadly, never be primarily due to technical limitations.
The idea of summoning a memory of a past battle seemed so good on paper. A chance to do something really interesting. Blizzard could have taken the original bosses and made them the highlight of the 5-man content of the Patch. Instead, they just recycled their skins and wrapped them around a standard elite. When they could have made it much more, well, memorable.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Bosses
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Drakkenfyre Aug 11th 2009 11:45PM
"As Lesley is sight-impaired she may have difficulty seeing if the ability is on cooldown and as a result relies on the audio feedback and spamming the skill to ensure it does what it has to do when it's allowed to."
I realize this, that's why I said I didn't want to be a jerk. There was another video where the guy spammed his abilities. All he did during the video was spam them constantly, it was annoying.
Drakkenfyre Aug 11th 2009 8:41PM
And to add, I am not trying to be a jerk. I am just saying there is an option to disable the "Not ready yet" message, in case someone wants to turn them off for a video.
Taladan Aug 11th 2009 8:51PM
ANNOYING NITPICK ALERT!
It's "Molten Core", Lesley. Not "Molton Core". ;)
Alekxandra Aug 12th 2009 11:58AM
The first time we got Paletress, we got VanCleef xD
Good times.
Mr. Crow Aug 11th 2009 8:55PM
I agree that all the memories being identical was grossly oversimplifying the encounter, but I think overcomplicating it would certainly have gone against the scope of a 5-man fight.
Giving Memory of Hogger an AoE stun would certainly make the fight challenging because you have to consider that Paletress is immune to damage and healing him at the same time. So the fight becomes a DPS race with certain advantages given to any ranged DPS 5-man builds.
Giving Memory of Onyxia a Deep Breath where she stops DPS briefly while Paletress and a bunch of Memory Whelps keep the party busy would make AoE classes shine, and would still cause older players to relive some of the sheer terror from Ony's Deep Breaths.
You can see how even adding one facet of the original raid encounter to each memory can make it possibly prohibitive for some 5-man make-ups to do, and with no way to prepare for which encounter you're going to get, there's no way to even prime your team for what MIGHT happen, as you had with the Opera Event in Kara.
If the Paletress+Memory of X encounter had been a 10/25-man raid encounter instead, it would be a different story, because any 10/25-man make-up should have all the tools necessary to deal with a relatively simple strategy on the fly. It's a teamwork and communication check more than a gear-check, and I think that Blizzard making something that's not necessarily numbers-dependent would have been a really unique encounter without requiring the same level of tech that Smith describes.
At the same time, I feel like the 5-man should have been longer and should have had a wider variety of possible encounters after the jousting match. Fighting the Black Knight Every. Single. Time. is just really overdoing the joke, and taking more time to do fun, easy-to-pick-up encounters would have been much more engaging in terms of replayability.
Jezza Aug 11th 2009 8:59PM
Mr Crow ..
I think we're thinking the same thing. You just type faster! :)
Jezza Aug 11th 2009 8:57PM
It's okay to dream, isn't it?
Putting aside all the technical and development limitations, if they had designed the encounter similar (or even a fragment) to as described above, it would have really been an epic battle that we'd all be complimenting and raving on about.
As it is, it's still functional, still drops epics, but there isn't a "wow" factor.
Maybe they could have designed it in the following way and for each type of group (this assumes they also made this even in the 10/25 man raids):
5 man - Any of the 5 man boss memories could be summoned
10 man - Any of the 10 man boss memories could be summoned
25 man - Any of the 25 man boss memories could be summoned
(I'm not saying the entire encounter - as someone mentioned before, some of the unique abilities)
The whole "choose your enemy from the past" reminded me a bit of the whole Ghostbuster's Stay-Puff Marshmallow man.
Mr. Crow Aug 11th 2009 9:03PM
I do type fast. ^_^
Farstrider Aug 11th 2009 9:29PM
devilsei Aug 11th 2009 8:32PM
Not trying, I said this exact thing before almost a week ago, and the most I got was "LAWL U WAN DEM TO REDU FITES?!"
You know Alamo?!
Eva Aug 11th 2009 9:06PM
I agree that the memory of bosses fight was a bit of a let down. Rather than complicate it up by making the game delve into your own memories, I would be happy if the bosses brought with them 1 signature ability on top of the attacks they have now. That's not impossible - we get random bosses with different abilities in VH. Right now the whole instance feels like a gimmick and a rush job - "Wow cool I'm fighting Onyxia... oh wait not really..."
flawless Aug 11th 2009 9:12PM
What you have to remember is, it's a boss in a five man instance. Not a story encounter, not a raid encounter, not a live event.
All of CC is specifically designed to help gear up players - casuals, raiders, alts - for current and future content (So that they can better experience the CC10/25 fights, Ulduar, and into IC).
Sure, each boss would be fun to fight a couple of times, but eventually it *would* become just another tedious thing (Great, Hogger again. /sigh). Instead, they put in a boss that has an ability that lets players that may not have encountered bosses, actually see them, regardless of whether they have the same abilities. I, for one, do not want to have the chance of being forced to deal with Algalon's proficiency in a plethora of painful powers every day. (Todays show is sponsored by the letter P - P for Pulitzer.) To say nothing of other bosses abilities.
FYI? Those bosses still exist in the game, you're more than able to fight them yourselves. If you feel you're not getting satisfaction from fighting them, try taking a few downgrades or even remove some gear.
TL,DR; ToC is not a raid, it's a Five-man instance.
Jezza Aug 11th 2009 9:40PM
Flawless,
I agree that 3.2 is the big "equaliser" patch before the charge into Icecrown
Everyone should be:
PvE T8.5 base
PvP Deadly Gladiator base
purely from Conquest badges
but it would be nice to have some variance in the instance that will be added to list of instances to run, run and run again.
The comment "Great, Hogger again, /sigh" would actually be a positive thing as there is still that small element of uncertainty / anticipation of the randomness which is what WoW thrives on and makes us all gamblers (What loot will drop? /roll etc), who keep coming back.
Dreadmaker Aug 11th 2009 9:14PM
I think with all the feedback being pretty much the same on both the forums and here, I think blizzard might have realized they made a bit of an error here.
I don't know about you folks, but I smell a 10-25 version of this boss coming down in Icecrown.
yeah, redoing an idea... whatever. They're going to have a minimum of 31 bosses... they'll need something to do ;)
Crash Aug 11th 2009 9:26PM
"Odd groups got left, even groups got right, 7 and 8 are whelp groups"
Ahh, memories.
Kitsunami Aug 11th 2009 9:31PM
Honestly, I have to say. When I encountered this fight I was completely expecting them to have the skin alone.
For the reason that making a boss that you encounter only 50% of the time, in a 5 man no less, summon entire pre existing raid and dungeon bosses was unrealistic. Changing your abilities even moreso. Way too much effort for this encounter.
Plus a selection like that would severely limit the ones you get to fight. You would almost never see memories of Illidan or Lucifron. And if there wasn't a system like this to choose, your group would be owned because they didn't know how to do the fights.
Furthermore this would encroach upon the existing fights. They would become less unique. The point being, if you want to see those fights then go do it. Nothing is stopping you and a boss like this would just make them less appealing.
For a raid boss that you encountered 100% of the time when completing the raid this would make more sense. But even then, perhaps just taking part in a small aspect of the fight briefly would be more realistic.
Jezza Aug 11th 2009 9:46PM
Yep .. taking the idea would be that the boss would be a nerfed boss (a shadow of it's real thing)
Because, it is a memory, and as with all memories, as time goes by, the story becomes more fantastic ("I once caught a fish this big")
So if would make sense that the fight was easier in our memories =P
(RP mode: especially when we're trying to talk ourselves to the leaders and get ourselves into Icecrown, telling them that we killed Gruul with wave of the little finger)
Precision Aug 11th 2009 9:47PM
I agree with it being too much work to add in special abilities of each boss for this one encounter. I think it's already enough that each encounter can have a different boss. It has that "Oh hey cool we got illidan this time". Just that alone is why I prefer fighting paletress to that wimp whitemane who keeps crying through the whole fight.
Precision Aug 11th 2009 9:52PM
@myself
I meant Eadric. Why in the world did I say whitemane?
jeanericuser Aug 11th 2009 9:44PM
I think this is a test to see how well people respond to the idea of facing old bosses again. They brought back arugal. They brought naxx back and beefed it up. They are bringing this stuff back to see how well people do with recycled bosses and whether people like it just in look only or full substance. All this is done in preparation for Icecrown Citadel which as GC mentioned features a lot of bosses. Likely not only will players be facing some new bosses but also repeat encounters with old bosses that have been brought back.
As for lore wise, from how I see it the bosses you face in that encounter are merely illusions created by the boss. There is no way that boss could have the power alone to bring back to life some of the most powerful bosses in azeroth. That is why they all fight similar. They are just illusions.
Rawry Aug 11th 2009 9:54PM
Wow. You reaaaaally over-probed the entire premise of the Paletress encounter. Why bother making custom versions of 30 or so unique bosses right down to their spells and abilities? That's just so impractical for the developers. Every single spell and ability would have to be scaled to match a heroic level 80 encounter, and each boss would have to be re-scripted to work with 5 players. It's pointless. Would be waaaay too much unnecessary work thrown into just one phase of one boss in the instance. It's like dumping 20 pounds of icing onto a quarter sheet cake. I know you might be thinking "well they should be trying harder to make it the best game possible". Yeah, in a development environment empty of time constraints and consistency, then maybe they'll massively over inflate a single 5-man encounter.