Because we SHOULD be at the top.

pvp: if you get the opener on a rogue he's pretty much dead. if the rogues cooldowns are gone he's pretty much dead. If a rogue gets opener on you and/or has his cooldowns you're pretty much dead. Rogues aren't running around in PvE gear owning everything like TBC, and our survivability without resilience was gutted (which is fair). Pallies and DK's can run into groups of 3+ people and own everyone, now that's OP. Rogue pvp burst is in line with warlocks, mages, and hunters. People just get pissed because the rogue style can be annoying to go against if they get an opener on you, that's just style...not power. Getting stunned is annoying, but it's also the defining aspect of rogue pvp. They need to get an opener and control the opponent otherwise they get destroyed. If you think rogues are still OP in pvp you are delusional or you just hate them. A lot of people hate rogues.

pve: rogues bring nothing to the group except for dps. therefore our dps should be in top 3. I think mages (and maybe locks) should be buffed a tiny bit for this same reason. Overall, if you think rogues should be 5th-6th on damage meter and bring NO buffs to group you are either delusional or you hate rogues. A lot of people hate rogues.

Rogues are in a good place right now.

@ EZ

Rogues hardly bring just DPS to a raid. We have plenty of debuffs we can use and more than enough CC for trash pulls. Expose Armor, wound poison, mind numbing poison, anesthetic for deraging, savage combat, TRICKS OF THE TRADE, kick, and so on. Oh how tanks love my tricks + fan of knives -> blade furry -> killing spree combo. It'll make any group stick to a tank like glue.

Rogues have so many utility skills to control a fight in the raids favor it's unbelievable. Not to mention more DPS than anyone else. I love the way my rogue is and the only thing I really really want for rogues is the ability to carry combo points with us.

"pve: rogues bring nothing to the group except for dps. therefore our dps should be in top 3. I think mages (and maybe locks) should be buffed a tiny bit for this same reason. Overall, if you think rogues should be 5th-6th on damage meter and bring NO buffs to group you are either delusional or you hate rogues. A lot of people hate rogues."

I think rogues who are fully geared in uld, and hard mode gear should be among the top dps. I think rogues who are coming out of naxx and are breaking even with myself(enh shaman and only for certain fights) and a feral who are both t8.5 and hardmode stuff is absurd. No other pure is close to you guys, there is no reason rogues should be miles ahead of other classes.

frankly for pvp with the number of cd's you guys do have its a rare occasion to catch you without them. even with 700 resil and "shamwall" i get stunlocked to death by rogues in pve gear.

I personally get sick and tired of people who are too blind or stubborn to admit their own advantages but will spout day and night about their inconveniences. As an enh shaman I'm down right op with my wolves up 1v1. I played a warrior in BC, and like every other war dominated with a resto druid in 2s. I also mt-d for a bt semi casual guild and I knew why I was the mt(well asides from being the gm). Was it fair: hell no. Calling rogues "fair" is a bigger joke than sentry totem.

Honestly, I agreed with all of that. But I feel one thing didn't get addressed that I think was really important.

When WotLK came around Blizzard did a good job of making everyone's specs viable for PvE or PvP whatever you wanted to do.

But Sub still lagged far behind mutilate and combat for PvE DPS. I think Blizzard's acknowledgment of this and potential plans to make other DPS talents passive to increase sub DPS was very important.

@EZ

i agree totally with your first few sentences...watch a warrior get a charge of at a already occupied rogue then watch his health diminish within seconds...rogues are nothing with out a few good cds up...sure we can stunlock you...sure our poisons pss people off...make a rogue get to the 29 bracket and try killing someone with out any criplling poisons...with out your stuns or anything...the class just hits the dirt.rogues are fairly balanced class...people taht get bursted down within the cs/ks rotation need better gear..or a better healer in arena xD