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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsDrama Mamas: Elitists and exits
by Robin Torres 
Aug 14th 2009 at 2:00PM
This Drama Mama is in a bit of a pre-BlizzCon frenzy, what with preparations and announcements. But drama waits for no mama and we have two more questions to answer this week. First, we hear from a player who is frustrated with condescending guildies and seeks help in dealing with them. Next, a player who is paranoid about joining guilds after a bad exit wants to know a better way to leave.
But enough with the introductions! Let's get to the drama.
Pride and prejudice
Dearest Mamas of Da Drama: I've recently come back to WoW after taking a few months off. I came back to a new guild with most of the people I was friends with from my previous few years in-game and played a lot of classes to 20ish level to see what I really liked. The new guild was described as a 'Hard Core Raiding Guild' but a few of us were friends and are just there questing, leveling and PvPing.There's a palpable taste of 'only raiders are real players' from some of the officers, though the leaders tend to temper the rhetoric when it comes up. I've gotten to the point where I'm tanking Heroics with my DK, but I'm still feeling like a 2nd class citizen, even though I contribute on the forums and have answers quick at hand when people ask for advice in guild chat (I've now leveled 4 toons to 80 and have done all of the roles).
Do I just need to ignore the elitist jerks who think that because they dedicate every night to raiding and have uber gear that they're better than someone that knows a little bit about most parts of the game and is ready to help when asked? Signed, Frustrated with Raiders
Drama Mama Robin: Dear Frustrated, I have to deal with this attitude on a constant basis because The Spousal Unit is one of those elitist jerks. His definition of fun is very different from mine and he believes his is "better". Mmhmm. Sure, I know a lot about the game as a whole and am hip to the latest news, but I'm still a "bad" player because my gear isn't leet and I don't raid. He also has the attitude that I am one of the few who enjoy leveling, questing and playing the game casually. He says that most players only enjoy playing the endgame: never satisfied with their gear and running the same raids over and over and over. (I may have slanted my paraphrasing a bit.) There are a few things I've learned from these arguments:
- The elitists won't change. They can't be convinced. They think casual players are only rationalizing when we say we're having fun, so we have no credibility with them.
- Sticks and stones. Their words can only hurt us if we let them.
- They aren't apples. A few bad ones won't necessarily spoil the bunch. If you are having a good time with the rest of your guild (as I do in the raiding guild I belong to with The Spousal Unit), then it's those people who matter.
Drama Mama Lisa: Frustrated With Raiders, it's not the raiders you should be frustrated with – it's your choice of guilds. You said it yourself: this group is now a hardcore raiding guild, and you're not a hardcore raider. If you want to move into raiding, this may be a good guild home for you to grow into. However, if "growing into it" isn't what you have in mind, then you're simply in the wrong place. You need to look for a more compatible guild where you can meet and play with people who enjoy the game the way you do. Real friends will group up with you no matter where you tag yourself. But a guild home that offers nothing in the way of compatible groupmates, activities, support or conversation ... Wait, what are you there for again?
Dear Drama Mamas: When I first started playing WoW, I hooked up with this gang of guys that was running around in Tarren Mill. When I decided I wanted a more serious guild and left, though, the guild leader hit me with all these ugly whispers and other members essentially turned their backs on me. Now I'm paranoid about joining another guild. What if I don't like it and want to leave? Does that mean another round of this drama? Signed, No Hard Feelings
Drama Mama Lisa: While it could have been your timing or something you said, we suspect that the hard feelings arose over what you didn't say. Leaving a guild with no notice and without a word is a slap in the face, no matter how innocent your intentions. Even if you're unhappy with the guild, avoid burning bridges. Situations (and players' attitudes) change, and the guildmate you tussled with in guildchat every night in your 20s may be the one who invites you to the perfect raiding group once you're 80.
So be polite. The smart way to pull out is to speak with the GM (Guild Master, or Guild Leader) or an officer first. Be brief but honest ("I've decided to move to another guild where I'll be playing with a good friend. Take care and thanks for having me!"). If you're uncomfortable saying something in person, you can send an in-game note or private message on the guild forums first. Timing your departure for a time when fewer members will be online to take notice helps minimize awkwardness.
Don't be afraid to leave a guild that's not the right fit. It's not necessarily anyone's fault if things don't click. But do consider your next guild choice carefully, whether you're looking for a leveling guild or applying to a raiding guild.
Oh, and hey – the same general principles go for leaving groups, too. Dropping groups early will earn you the "That Guy" label faster than you can log out. If you really do need to leave (whether your playtime has been unavoidably interrupted or you simply can't stand the group) – again, don't burn any bridges. Inform the group that you're sorry but you have to leave. Brownie points if you offer to stay five minutes or until they find a replacement.
Whatever you do, don't be a spineless jellyfish and simply disconnect. That leaves the entire group wondering if you're going to log back in or not. They'll suspect the truth and be furious when they realize you've wasted their time, remembering you wrathfully as "That Guy Who Stranded Us." Have the guts to execute a straightforward departure, and even groups gone bad will think kindly of you next time around.
Drama Mama Robin: I want to mildly disagree with one (and only one) aspect of Drama Mama Lisa's advice: honesty is not necessarily the way to go in either exit situation. In almost all things, honesty is the best policy, but tact and white lies will help you keep relations friendly with your ex-guildies or groupmates. Telling the guild you are leaving that you "want a more serious guild" is insulting to them and they will take offense. Lisa's "playing with a good friend" excuse is a much better one. When leaving a terrible group experience, a "minor pet emergency" or "unexpected guest" excuse is much better than "I'll be back when you L2Play." And don't publicly badmouth the groups/guilds you leave. Classy is as classy does.
Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Features, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Rubitard Aug 14th 2009 2:58PM
Sometimes, it doesn't matter how much you explain your reasons for leaving -- people will feel that it is a betrayal. It's how some folks are wired. Guild affiliation just gets taken very personally, and by some people you'd not necessarily expect. I won't detail the entirety of my own drama, but suffice to say a person who was a casual player herself took my leaving for a less intense guild very, very hard and could only chalk it up to me hating the guild and all the members therein. This was after assurances that she'd still support me not long after I made the decision to leave. Everyone was cool with it, as just about everyone on the old guild was going in a direction I knew I'd not be able, or even want, to go. It was just this one chick....
Terethall Aug 14th 2009 3:09PM
Without trying to read more into a situation about which I know very little, it seems like this girl might have had immature feelings of affection for you that she was unable to reconcile with your departure. That sort of thing can't be helped, really. And attempts to work things out in situations like that generally end poorly.
Rubitard Aug 14th 2009 3:16PM
I think it was a more generalized abandonment thing than an actual affection thing. I'd considered it, but since she was married with a few kids, I discounted puppy love in favor of what I've mentioned. She hasn't had a pattern of such behavior in the past, so I might have totally misread her. It wouldn't be the first signal from a gal I've botched! Well, that and I suspect she was Irish (read below.)
Rubitard Aug 14th 2009 3:07PM
Of course, I'm sure we can all agree that when playing with the Irish, it's okay to be as rude and insulting as possible before you drop for no reason. I mean, it's the Irish for Pete's sake! They're nobody people!
Tom Aug 14th 2009 3:50PM
Hmmm, there are some interesting thoughts and advice here.
For myself, I have little tolerance for drama and so I never, NEVER join guilds anymore. I much prefer going it alone and just PUG-ing occasionally. Guilds just make life in-game too ... complicated and not fun, imo.
If I was to ever hit a point in the game where I actually "needed" a guild, I'd probably quit WoW altogether and play something else. Fortunately, there's a lot to do in WoW that doesn't require a guild (yes, I do bypass raiding altogether, but I do not care).
I have been playing WoW on and off again for several years -- for the most part completely "Guild-free." It's been very nice.
usagizero Aug 15th 2009 2:29PM
Same here, all my "main" characters are guildless, and i pretty much prefer it that way. Every guild i did join early on kicked me if i was not on that character for long. (under a month usually) Just too much drama for me. I can play how i want, besides raiding really and sometimes getting dungeons is a pain, but if i want to do something i can.
Odd thing though, you don't know how many times people thought i was a bot or gold farmer because i don't have a guild. Only reasons beside the random guild invites i've just wanted to make my own guild (should be easier than it is really, the signature thing is annoying and should change).
Even though i'd probably stay guild free, there should be a way to join multiple guilds, sort of like how you can be in different arena teams. Make it so you can see what guilds the person is in on the character info, so they can't "hide" what ones they are in. It would allow people to join a raiding guild while also staying with friends in the casual guild. Problem solved.
Jill Aug 14th 2009 3:50PM
On the topic of lying to get out of something: if you're going to lie, make sure you lie well. I'm the GM of a raiding guild, and I recently had a member come to me and tell me that he was leaving the guild because he didn't think playing with a guild fit his playstyle at the time, and that he may come back sometime later when his view of the game had changed. He told me this in an in-game mail, that I saved.
And then he changed his toon name. Therefore, the in-game mail name changed. And what did my /who tell me? That he's in another raiding guild on the same server. Mind you, this happened right after he took the firsts sets of DK dps drops from our first forays into Ulduar.
If you're going to lie, think about a) the content of your lie, b) your audience and c) your method of lying. Otherwise you might wind up like Mr. Namechange and never be able to come back to your old guild as long as this chick's in charge.
The short of it is: don't be a dumb liar; be a smart manipulator, if you're going to be doing any lying at all.
micgillam Aug 14th 2009 4:07PM
I'd like to ask a speculative question. Mr. Namechange, instead of leaving immediately, says "There's another guild I want to join, that I have some friends in. Since I got some gear in the last few raids, I want to stay for a few weeks and help the other guildies gear."
What do you do? Shoot the hostage?
Wolfy Aug 14th 2009 4:33PM
LOL this is hilarious when im in a fail group I honestly just go "you guys fail peace im out" its a video game people treat it like one.
Barinthos Aug 14th 2009 4:17PM
You're playing a video game with REAL PEOPLE. They aren't NPCs with no feelings or thoughts. Using some tact, whether that be telling a white lie or saying the group isn't what you expected is a courtesy that people in your group deserve, not douchebaggery.
Irem Aug 14th 2009 4:43PM
I treat it like a video game that I play with other people, so I suppose it's good that I learned early to have patience and treat others with respect when doing cooperative activities.
Hoggersbud Aug 14th 2009 4:16PM
I'm going to go a different direction from where the Drama Mama's went on the last question and suggest that the solution lies with the Guild Masters.
Who should absolutely take somebody leaving with a great deal of equanimity. If somebody leaves, and wants to say why...fine. Let them. If they don't, who are you to push it on them? And don't do something stupid like bashing them anywhere.
Just let them go.
And no, I don't care how much loot you gave them, or what money you spent enchanting them. If you did that with somebody who up and left on you, that's on you as much as them.
Nobody else wants to be involved in your drama, and if you're truly in the right, then live with that, because barring a miracle, they won't admit it. Same as you won't admit you're in the wrong.
Yeah, I suppose it's ok to ask, and if there's something wrong try to fix it, but chances are...either you won't be able to fix the problem, or there's no real problem, somebody just wants to be elsewhere. But guess what? Joining a guild isn't the same as joining the military. There's no oath. There's no penalty for leaving.
At least not with any guild I'd want to join.
Irem Aug 14th 2009 5:06PM
I agree with this. Wierdly, the guild I was in charge of before had a few departures by people who were unhappy in the guild, followed by some of their friends who wanted to be in whatever guild they were, and the default assumption by every single one of them was that I was going to be furious. Or that I would want a solid excuse. Or that they needed to apologize because they'd done something wrong somehow by wanting a different guild.
If someone is unhappy in a guild, whether because they just don't fit or because they want to play the game differently, the last thing to do is demand a justification for it. There were cases where I wish they'd told me why they were dissatisfied, but like you said, for the most part they just wanted to be elsewhere and I doubt anything I could have done would have made them want to stay. My biggest beef with them is that some of them stuck around out of that idea that they'd be betraying the guild by leaving, and by the time I knew that they were unhappy and wanted to leave, they'd been harboring resentment over "having" to stay. Those were the people who seemed the most gobsmacked by a lack of drama on the officers' part when they left.
iSully Aug 14th 2009 4:26PM
I play WoW casually, but I play other games quite competitively. So when I come across a casual player I don't give them hell or think they're bad - I think they're just having fun. But for some people 'fun' is hardcore raid progression and doing really well.
Barinthos Aug 14th 2009 4:40PM
Exactly. Different folks, different strokes.
There are professional PVPers in WoW that never raid, or if they do it's casual at best. Are they baddies because of it? They can be the best PVPer in the world but since they didn't down a mindless NPC they fail at the game? Not so much.
Wolfy Aug 14th 2009 4:45PM
So it's douchebaggery to tell someone they are bad at tanking or healing or even dpsing when they are. I don't care if you're a casual player but the time I use on a game is limited and I'd rather not waste that time wiping on something like the kite boss in VH just because the tank doesnt know how to make a circle around the ledge. So yes in a situation like that I say hey tank you are bad get better I'm out.
Barinthos Aug 14th 2009 4:54PM
Just flat out telling someone they suck or fail is douchbaggery yes, no doubt. But telling them what they could do to be better or giving them constructive criticism is being courteous.
WoW doesn't revolve around you, so your "limited time" is your problem and a sorry excuse to be rude to people that most likely haven't played long enough to figure out every bosses intricacies.
Matt Aug 14th 2009 4:55PM
Hey Wolfy,
you sound like you really kind of care that you may be hurting someones feelings a little, instead of helping them out and maybe making a new friend.
The real hardcore guys that tell people they are bad don't come to forums to therapize about it. They just do it and shut up.
I think you might be crying for help.
Irem Aug 14th 2009 5:46PM
Don't quote me or anything, but I've heard that the best way to raise the overall quality of the playerbase is to call people bad, provide vague, unhelpful commentary like "get better," and pretend that an MMO is actually a single-player RPG in which you're perfectly justified in berating the secondary support characters in your party for being so horribly coded.
For every few people you insult and ditch, one or two of them actually will "get better" and go on to become decent players or even excellent ones, no thanks to you. And they'll probably remember you, and that'll be one jackass they can cross off the list of people to bother with. At least you display warning colors.
Jon Aug 14th 2009 4:34PM
Most of these problems can be easily avoided by having a solid guild application process.
Instead of asking "does anyone see why this person shouldn't be allowed to join?" a guild needs to carefully pick apart every app and ask "is this person going to be a good fit for our guild?"
That way, instead of having to deal with g-quits and drama, they can prevent it from happening in the first place. The application itself, a try-out process, or an interview can all be great ways to determine whether someone's a good fit for your guild.
The first raiding guild I was in basically let anyone join, and there was tons of drama month after month. Terribad DPS were allowed to join in mass quantities, and raids continued to suffer. We had a plethora of DK's that refused to tank, and paladins that refused to heal. Guild chat was always full of begging and whining. All the typical raiding guild problems were present with this guild.
The guild I later joined has a strict application process. All applications are opened up to all existing members to comment on. Prospective members are given a tryout and an interview to make sure they're a good fit. There has been no drama or g-quitting ever since I joined several months ago. We have cleared Ulduar and all the ToC bosses. No one ever whines, and there is a great camaraderie between our guildies.
Why deal with drama when you can stop it from happening in the first place?