Officers' Quarters: The standby experience
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership."You're on standby tonight." No one wants to hear these words when a raid is forming. It's aggravating, frustrating, and downright depressing sometimes. This week's e-mail comes from a player who's had it with being on standby. I will talk about what she can do to help herself, why raid leaders do this to you, and how the standby system can work better for everyone involved.
Hey Scott!
I've been reading your column for a few months now and I particularly enjoy it. However, I thought I'd never find myself writing to it.
I'm in a bit of a conundrum.
You see, my guild of which I was a member of for quite a few months and enjoyed hanging out with and raiding with broke up. Those of us who were still around joined a good raiding guild on the server. I've seen the leaders and the officers in action and I'm impressed. The guild is fairly large and compared to my last guild, foreign. My previous guild was very friendly and explained things to me. I'm fairly new to this game and especially raiding (I raided Karazhan only a few times as compared to some people's many, many, many times.), but I pick up on things quickly and try to be as useful and helpful as I can. At the moment, there are more than 25 people signed up to raid and the leaders pick who gets to go and who sits on standby. They also use a DKP system, which I am fine with.
My problem is with the standby system.
I completely understand that there are only 25 spots in a raid and not everyone who signs up gets to go. The officers decide who gets to go and who doesn't and that puts a cap on how much DKP you can earn. Obviously they have some regulars that get to go all the time, which means they have high amounts of DKP. If I am continually made to sit on the sidelines, I gain nothing, even though I said I would be able to go. And in the event I do get to go, I probably won't win anything because the regulars have top pick on several pieces of gear because I flat out can't afford it. I don't mind not getting new gear but complaining about my performance because I don't have anything from the latest content is an argument I don't want to run into. People who are on stand by generally need to stick around all night, finding other ways to amuse themselves without becoming too committed, which is absolutely no fun and has no reward.
I am more than willing to put forth the time and effort to going into raids every week, but I don't like the fact that I will not be rewarded until players with a similar gear spec (Casters for instance) get every last piece that they need before I can even get one. [. . .]
How long should I wait to raid until I find a different guild to go to? This server is small and there are not a whole lot of other guilds I want to be associated with so the point where I become that frustrated that I quit will either cause me to transfer servers and start over or quit the game altogether. And I really don't want to do either because I will miss my friends and the game.
Do you have any advice?
Signed,
Frustrated Raider
Hi, FR.
I'm going to address your specific situation first. A few questions for you to think about:
- How far behind are you, gearwise, from the average raider in your new guild? Have you upgraded to epic gems in every slot?
- Are you actively running Heroics for badges now that 3.2 is out? Do you have the necessary reputation to purchase the best helm and shoulder enchants for your spec?
- Do you find yourself getting confused during raids? Do you read strategies and watch kill videos ahead of time?
- Do you show up prepared with all the consumables, reagents, resist gear, and offspec gear sets that you need?
- Do you cause distractions or frequently AFK during the raid?
In addition, the fact that you are an inexperienced raider can really work against you in these situations. Make sure to speak with a class leader or other veteran raider about what your guild's expectations are. Then do your best to meet them every raid night.
The worst thing you can do as a new guild member is complain publicly about the guild's policies or its officers. You'll be labeled a troublemaker/drama queen and it will take a lot of hard work to overcome that reputation.
Instead, I suggest asking the people who fill the raid slots how you can improve. Do not ask them while they are filling the raid, or while they are raiding. They have enough to deal with at those times. Wait for a moment when the officers are just hanging out. Then have a private conversation with them about what you can do to be more valuable to them. As long as you don't frame this conversation as a complaint, they will be impressed by your initiative.
Other than that, you just have to wait your turn. It sucks, but if you want to stay with your friends, you'll have to deal with it.
Now, let's talk about standby from an officers' perspective. Standby is awesome for us. You never know when you're going to lose someone for the night, for any of a thousand different reasons, and it's really handy to have people waiting around to take their place.
Standby isn't nearly as necessary for a 10-player run. Fewer people generally means fewer issues. But for 25-player raids it's almost a must. Without players on standby, you could face multiple, long pauses where you try to fill a suddenly empty slot. You might even have to call the run prematurely. If that happens too often, your players won't want to raid with your guild anymore. Soon enough, no one in the guild will be raiding.
However, for those players waiting around, it's really no fun at all. So how can we improve the standby system both for them and for us? Here are some ideas.
- Let them earn DKP or other incentives that help them to get loot when they do get a chance to kill bosses. It doesn't have to be the same amount that people inside the instance are earning. After all, the raiders on standby aren't paying repair bills or using consumables. But it should be enough that they don't feel like they're completely wasting their time if they don't get in. If they have a gathering profession, invite them to gather materials for the guild bank and compensate them with a modest amount of DKP or other loot advantages.
- Make sure your raiders communicate about what time they might need to leave. If you have a better idea when you might need someone on standby, they can make more productive use of their time. Of course, some players like to pretend they can stay the whole night, and then some "urgent matter" suddenly comes up. That's because they think you won't take them if you know they can't stay the whole run. There isn't really a way to prevent this except by keeping tabs on who tends to leave early and handling the issue accordingly. Or by recruiting honest players . . .
- On that note, let them run the short Heroics. Runs like the Trial of the Champion, Violet Hold, and Drak'Tharon Keep each take less than 20 minutes with a decent group. As long as you have some idea when you might need a standby player, they can plan to be out of dungeons and available around that time. They'll be earning badges that will help them gear up and make a better contribution when they get their chance.
- Think about rotating players in and out. Once you have a raid on farm, maximize your loot drops by rotating out players who don't need the loot for those on standby who do. As long as you have a warlock in the raid, and your players know the fights adequately, it won't slow you down too much.
- Keep track of those on standby and try to avoid putting them in that situation every single week. You're going to lose them sooner or later. No one can deal with that much standby without shopping around for other guilds. Not to mention, once they finally do get an invite, they won't be very experienced with the encounters. Reading strategies and watching videos can only convey the technical details of the fight. Nothing is better for learning an encounter than raw experience.
- As a purely voluntary option, allow raiders to give you their phone numbers or IM names so they can be on standby without being logged in. It's an extra step for the raid leaders to contact someone, so your members should understand that they might be passed up if someone else is online and they're not. However, some nights it's just nice as a standby to have the option, even if it means it decreases your chances of a slot. Just make sure people know that when they get called up, they need to get online immediately (barring a real-life emergency, of course).
- If a player has virtually no chance of getting into a run, for whatever reason, don't put them on standby week after week as a way of blowing them off. Tell them how they're falling short or why you don't intend to bring them. Then tell what they need to do (or stop doing) to earn a slot, even if it's just a standby slot.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
thebl4ckd0g Aug 17th 2009 1:07PM
When I was in a big raiding guild pre-BC and we used DKP, anybody on standby who was either on their main or an alt with their main parked at the portal - got DKP. Sound like he should recommend that to his guild leaders if he's not getting any, or find a guild that does offer it.
swampsquatch Aug 17th 2009 2:25PM
I was in a guild that did this. It works really well and you SHOULD be rewarded for sitting around hoping for a spot. As long is it is clear how much DKP you are earning and currently have, great system.
x08redsee08x Aug 17th 2009 3:02PM
I agree. My guild gives the exact amount of dkp to the people on standby. He even gives out dkp if he drops people out of the raid for another player.
DW Aug 17th 2009 3:51PM
The most interesting question you need to ask yourself is the following:
Why am I in this guild?
I *love* when a raid says they "have" to have people on the sidelines - just in case. O RLY? Since when is it ok to trash someone's night for a "just in case - so we don't inconvenience the other people who are doing the fun stuff without you". Really? Try /2 - it's easy to find someone to step in. The entire standby stuff is elitist and obnoxious (Our time is valuable - your's, Mr. Sidelined - isnt'. Besides - you should be grateful for an opportunity to come prove yourself to us... and maybe (if no one else needs it) you can get a purple too".
The Member / Guild relationship is based on MUTUAL benefits. Being sidelined isn't mutual. Being asked to stand in after 4 hours for 1 (maybe 2) fights isn't Mutual. It's predatory.
For all the "I've earned the right to get the purplez" - you haven't. Until you can solo it yourself - you will always need 24 other people. Honestly, despite what you think - you really aren't all that special. There are another 100,000 people who are just as good as you are. The difference between those that sitout and you is most likely opportunity.
Don't believe me - hit up the PTR with the premade epic chars.
Anyway - this topic always annoys me.
Eisengel Aug 17th 2009 7:53PM
After being on both sides of this divide, I think the best solution, if you are using DKP, is to give more DKP to the people who show up on time and ready, but have to sit out. This balances opportunity vs cost. If someone has to sit out a bunch of times, once they get to run, they'll have more DKP than the regular raiders, and will be able to get whatever gear upgrades they need. Since the regular raiders raid more often, they have more opportunity to bid on items, so they'll eventually hit a run where a piece of gear they want comes up and no one else has enough DKP to buy it. This would make the rate at which regular raiders and benched raiders acquire gear closer, rather than giving massive preference to the regulars.
Kaz Aug 17th 2009 8:59PM
@DW
I suggest you try running a progression guild (or any guild really) sometime. Your comments sound like you are bitter for being sat out in guild similar to what the OP describes and while I can sympathise with this, your opinion is not only selfish but flawed and biased.
The simple truth is that if you want to run a guild, you will need to do rotations. I will highlight with an example from my guild last night:
I had a number of players put in apologies for the raid last night. One was very sick and had been all week. Another was celebrating their birthday and was going out with family. Another had recently been restructured at work and the impact on his schedule was random as things settled. There were 3 others of a similar nature, 6 people in total. We were lining up to continue our attempts at Yogg+1. If I had no backup players as you sugegst, my raid would have 19 people in at and there would be no chance of doing this hard mode, with even the normal version being problematical. Of course your other suggestion of going to /2 channel is also beyond stupid as there is almost no chance I would be able to find a skilled and geared player for this content. Fortuantely the players in my guild are not as unrealistic as you are and we maintain a small rotation of about 8 peoople. I formed up a raid and after 6 attempts, we downed Yogg.
Of course, I could drop my rotations all together but to do that I would require 100% attendance from every member. There are some truly hardcore guilds that maintain this. We do not and I run that fine line of catering to real life while still maintaing a skilled and focused raiding team. To facilitate this, guess what - rotations.
Of course our guild does not look at rotations as wasted time. We only raid 3 nights a week, and many of our players enjoy this format as they are skilled and crave progression but have lots of other real life commitments (Myself I have work, studying for my masters and wife and newborn). This means they have 3 nights of playtime and the rest is for whatever else. If they are rotated out then they see it as a chance to do some dailies for more gold for repair costs. To farm the mats for flasks/elixirs or a new craftable they need. To work on a faction rep that might be vital or to practice a new spec that offers a DPS increase. Even PvP is good practice for raiders, moresoe considering the next boss in Coliseum out this week. The simple fact is there is no wasted time, only time YOU waste.
I realise that people on the sidelines miss out on gear drops but the simple fact is that gear is not important. The quickest way to get gear is to get the instance on farm. Then gear is just a matter of time and a little bit of luck (damn you Blizzards RNG). Our new members get geared inside 2 weeks simply because our members have everything they need, but in new content (like Coliseum for eg.) the gear slowly trickles out, but none of our members care who gets what simply because the focus is downing the bosses, because as I said, if everything dies, we get maximum loot each week meaning shiny purple pixels is again, just time.
Of course maintaining this is not easy. You are right when you say the OP should ask "Why am I in this guild?", as a good guild will understand these issues and work around them. Here are some things we do:
- We maintain a small roster of only 33 raiders. This means there is always very few if no people on rotations due to the normal RL problems. Some guilds might prefer a larger roster but this requires more attention to rotations. the larger your roster, the more work you need to put in to maintain your raid team and rotations
- We record who rotates each night and except for trials, we guarantee no raiders will be rotated more than once per week. The only time this changes in on progression fights where I might stack the raid a certain way.
- We encourage our raiders to work together to facilitate rotations and raiding. For example our priests often rotate themselves based on what content we are doing and who needs what items. Also some people might want a night off. Recently one of our tanks wanted to study for an exam and took a week off but made sure the other tanks were available. When he got back, they organsied their own rotations to give him some more playtime and they know he will ensure he is available if they need time off.
- When people are on rotation, make it easy for them to be available or you to contact them. We have a channel setup in game for people on rotations to be in or they can stay in vent somewhere. This means they can get on alts and I can stille asily contact them. We have also done the same thing Scott suggested and I have a copy of everyones mobiles in case I need to call them.
- Communication. This is the biggest one. A guild is only as good as its leaders and a good leader will be open and honest and ensure everyone knows where they stand. If your a guild leader and you rotate someone out because you don't like them and don't want to take them to a raid but decline to tell them this then you are the type of scum that make this game un-fun. I don't expect all my raiders to get on with each other and to be perfectly honest, I would love to slap a few of my own raiders in the back of the head but this does not stop me from raiding them. They are skilled, dedicated and work hard for the guild. They have earnt their spot and despite anything I dislike about them, they are entitled to raid. At the same time, members need to communicate back to officers and the GM. If you feel that you are being left out or you have ideas that might improve the running of the guild, suggest them. Just ensure that you do it with respect. Chucking a tantrum doesn't get your point across. Also be prepared to accept a no from the GM.
The simple truth is that real life is always greater than WoW and has a funny way of interfering with your play time. If you truly respect the people you play with, you will ensure that their playtime is not interupted when yours is, and the simplest most effective way to do this is to accept that rotations are a neccessary evil and to work with your guildies to minimize its impact and maximize your fun.
Peezah Aug 19th 2009 6:03AM
I am an Officer in a medium sized casual guild. We no longer have the activity/numbers to run 25man raid, but when we we able to, we had a 'farm group' dedicated to farming mats for the Guild Bank by those who were on standby. Raiders on standby received full DKP for the raid, yes it threw out the value's a little bit, but they deserved it.
Hardcore raiding guilds seem to forget decency in regards to valuing their members time and effort. They are not a number, but a person, and should be rewarded. I disagree with the idea of making someone standby for a raid, then not giving them something in return.
QQinsider Aug 18th 2009 7:55AM
I've never known a guild that didn't reward people if they expected them to stay available for the night on standby. I mean, it's obvious. You're giving up your time just the same as the people who are chosen to raid, therefore you should be rewarded too. If not, I'd go do what I like with my time, or more likely, /gquit and find a fairer guild.
DW Aug 18th 2009 7:04PM
@Kaz:
I've run a guild before (Friends - not progression).
With that said - I agree with what you wrote completely. The point being that you handle raids and rotations *fairly* - with good communication. My issue is with the guilds that don't - and use the catch22 as the excuse to be predatory (to support the "core-raider-clique").
Cheers.
Gridneo Aug 17th 2009 1:08PM
He should just leave now, because he's probably terribad.
Nobody wants to carry terribad, and I'd imagine if you're on the backburner, you're there for a reason. We bring people that are good. Like Void Zones? We try to leave you at home. Sorry. Not our fault, it's yours.
Garidon Aug 17th 2009 1:14PM
Wow, is that your guild recruitment ad? Amazed you have anyone that would be willing to standby.
theRaptor Aug 17th 2009 1:31PM
Or he is just in a guild with too many people who want to raid and isn't up to scratch in gear.
And unless you are doing hardmodes it is easy to carry poor players. Hell my guild did the first boss in Trial of the Crusader this week with only about the top six DPS breaking 3k, and one of the healers only out did the spriests Vamp. Embrace by about 150%. We regularly have 5 - 10 poorly geared or just plain poor players in our raids.
So really unless you are progressing hardmodes you shouldn't be talking about how you don't allow terribads to come. And if you are progressing hardmodes you will be excluding people based on their raw DPS/HPS not on whether they trip into void zones (as generally you need basic raiding skills to even get into a progression raiding guild).
Joey Aug 17th 2009 1:37PM
@Gridneo This sort of attitude is my least favorite thing about this game. Everyone has to start somewhere and everyone needs to learn encounters and gear up. Yet because you've already done these things you feel everyone else should already be at your level.
It's called progress. You were a "terribad" once too. But you got lucky and people were willing to deal with your insufferable attitude and lack of skills and allowed you to properly learn the game. All this guy is asking for is the same opportunity (albeit with a heck of a lot more humility).
MadMac10 Aug 17th 2009 1:51PM
I personally prefer to play with terribad than some mean ol' bastid who is trying to compensate for a crucial life component by making a supposedly fun game into work. Many terribad players I have grouped with became friends and eventually passed me up; every mean ol' bastid I've known only become more bitter and isolated with each new piece of gear.
Clbull Aug 17th 2009 1:50PM
@Joey - This is perfectly true. People should be allowed to raid even if they lack the experience. Although I think that should depend on if they are willing to learn the encounter, and read up on tactics.
Cyrus Aug 17th 2009 3:59PM
I've never seen so many comments rated up to a blue background before. Personally, I think theRaptor's might be the best, but they're all pretty good.
Gridneo, I think they're trying to tell you something. Just a thought.
M Aug 17th 2009 4:29PM
He doesn't have to be a bad player.
He could have had rotten circumstances, like what happened to me.
I joined a top-three guild for Alliance on my server; I had no interest in the other two at all, both of which killed Yogg before this one, so were perhaps technically ahead in progress. During my two week trial, the #1 guild merged into my guild, bringing a full compliment of active and established raiders. Yes, #1 merged into #3.
After my trial was up, I talked to the GL for promotion (not a problem), but also asked my real question: was there a chance for me to earn a permanent raid spot. He told me, honestly, that there was not (because of the merger). There were already established players that weren't going to be sidelined, regardless of whether my performance was better (it was) or I was more prepared to raid (I was).
So I thanked him, wished him well, and left the guild on a good note.
I now wonder if there was an agreement between the two guilds that a certain number from each guild would be raiding, and to sit one of the merged raiders out, the GL would have to give up a spot for original members. Either way, pushing and arguing wouldn't have made things better, and the only right thing to do was to leave the guild, without whining.
busuan Aug 17th 2009 1:10PM
Whenever I hear a raid leader says 'DKP', I leave the party.
Still regretting the first time I stayed in a pug after I learned they were using DKP.
It is simply a system ripping of all fun out of the game.
If some people don't understand an epic fail roll in game is just as fun as an epic win roll, they have some serious problem in real life. And I don't want to be with those people.
Arbolamante Aug 17th 2009 1:30PM
Ab-so-lu-ta-mente! My guild's loot rules are simple. Main spec rolls first, off spec second, no limit on loot. One result of this is it's not uncommon to hear someone say, "Oh, I'll pass. I already got something good tonight." or "Give it to the warlock - she hasn't gotten anything out of this place yet." Etc. DKP is just made for drama, and it's a sign of folks who take themselves waaaaay too seriously. It's a game, people.
Xiol Aug 17th 2009 1:33PM
DKP is generally a "good thing". It does have its faults, but overall it rewards players who commit to raids.
I see it like this: I'm pretty hardcore about raiding. I'm not in that good of a guild, but I raid about 6 nights a week (I'm a lazy student on summer break, sue me). At every raid I come focused, flasked, gemmed and enchanted with the best stuff I can afford. I give it my all, and - not to blow my own trumpet - I'm good at it. I earn DKP for my efforts.
So, imagine how pissed I'd be if some BiS item dropped and some dude who died in void zones, using green-quality gems, no flasks, no focus put into his raiding and this was his first raid with us... and he wins it on a lucky roll. (Selfishly, but) it simply isn't fair to me that all the time and effort I put into raids isn't rewarded with that BiS item that I could put to better use than this imaginary-yet-terribad player.
There are better systems than DKP out there, but DKP works for me.
(Apologies for poor grammar, spelling and general English-language skills. I've been drinking.)