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8-25-2009 @ 11:54AM
Lore-wise, for me, this still doesn't explain why the Worgen are part of the Alliance, and here's why -- I still don't understand why the Night Elves themselves are part of the alliance. So, in an effort to give the benefit of the doubt, I go to wowwiki.com to try to find out how THAT happened, but all I really find is this statement: "It is currently unknown when the night elves joined the Alliance, but it will probably be revealed in the Warcraft movie." It doesn't even say why they joined. Their first experience with the Orcs were bad, but that didn't last. They teamed up. Also, it seems, according to wowwiki.com, that "Jaina Proudmoore and Tyrande Whisperwind are good at coordinating their efforts on Kalimdor". This just brings to mind the close camaraderie between Thrall and Jaina.As soon as I understand why in the world the Night Elves ever joined the Alliance, then I will understand why the Worgen would be in the Alliance.
8-25-2009 @ 12:09PM
Let's break down the totally reasonable justification for the Worgen joining the alliance with an interview with Varian Wrynn!:Reporter: "So what do you think of Orcs?"Wrynn: "Savage beasts that need to be put down!"Reporter: "So what do you think of Trolls?"Wrynn: "Bloodthirsty heathens that need to be put down!"Reporter: "So what do you think of the Tauren?"Wrynn: "Filthy backwards animals that should have stayed in the wild!"Reporter: "So what do you think of the Forsaken?"Wrynn: "Wretched and cursed abominations that need to be put out of their misery!"Reporter: "So what do you think of Blood Elves?"Wrynn: "Wretched and cursed abominations that need to be put out of their misery!"Reporter: "Uh... I was asking about Blood Elves, not Forsaken..."Wrynn: "I know what I said!"Reporter: "So what do you think about an isolated race which is cursed form of a human and now has a pretty large streak of being savage and a bit bloodthirsty and also might be contagious to other humans!"Wrynn: "Sign em up! They sound wicked cool!"Sounds... logical... I guess...?
8-25-2009 @ 12:13PM
LOL! Awesome, dude.
8-25-2009 @ 12:14PM
Think about it this way:The Horde is based on Kalimdor. Sure, the Undead and the Blood Elves are on the Eastern Kingdoms, but they are relatively few compared to the bulk of the Horde (Orcs). The Orcs are already a pain in the Night Elves' butt due to their capital being so close to Ashenvale, the ancestral home of the Elves, and the whole Warsong Clan issue.The Night Elves also lost a huge number of their own in the Third War, not to mention losing their immortality. It was a huge trauma for such a proud race, being left alone in an increasingly hostile world (Felwood is a cesspool, Ashenvale has corrupted places, the animals are also hostile). They had found friends in the Third War when fighting alongside the humans and dwarves of the Alliance, and there would be no way in hell they'd align themselves with the Horde.So they sided with the Alliance. They are still reclusive and no one in the Alliance really trusted them too much in the beginning. But they are officially part of the organization, and are pictured in WoW as such.
8-25-2009 @ 12:21PM
"Their first experience with the Orcs were bad, but that didn't last. They teamed up."They "teamed up" in the face of Archimonde himself heading toward the World Tree. The situation couldn't be much more dire than that. Once the smoke cleared, though, the orcs were expansionist new neighbors actively deforesting the night elves homeland and they had literally killed the night elves' god. (Well, *A* god, at least.) "Bad, but that didn't last" is really understating it. (Not trying to get into yet another "who is the real bad guy" debate; both sides have their reasons to be pissed.) Name one pair of aligned factions with so much bad blood between them. That seems like plenty of reason for night elves to not like the horde. As for getting along with the rest of the Alliance, dwarves actually have a fair amount in common with night elves, and humans and draenei, whatever the faults of both races in the eyes of night elves, at least share common enemies with them. (Trolls and orcs with humans, orcs and blood elves with draenei.)
8-25-2009 @ 12:33PM
"Their first experience with the Orcs were bad, but that didn't last."...their first experience with the Orcs was them transforming into demon-tainted blood crazed monsters that slaughtered a revered demi-god that had guided and taught the keldori for thousands of years. Not quite the thing you get over that quickly. Given that the Warsong are still harvesting the forests of Ashenvale, and the thick taint of the legion in the Felwood, joining the Alliance in the wake of losing their immortality for more strength makes a fair bit of sense.As for the worgen, they were former members of the Alliance, and since it seems the first thing that happens when the Graymane wall comes crashing down is the Forsaken try to muscle in, well I can pretty much understand why Gilneas would try to return to the fold, and with the support of another current Alliance member, even Horde-hating twit King Varian would probably decide they were at least as tolerable as Death Knights.
8-25-2009 @ 12:40PM
"The Orcs are already a pain in the Night Elves' butt due to their capital being so close to Ashenvale" How are they a pain in the butt? Also, I might note that the Tauren welcomed the Orcs to Kalimdor, and didn't consider them "a pain in the butt", but saw their need, and helped them."there would be no way in hell they'd align themselves with the Horde."The lore says otherwise: "Tyrande and Malfurion had allied with Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore". Thrall = Horde."the orcs were expansionist new neighbors actively deforesting the night elves homeland and they had literally killed the night elves' god."Grom Hellscream and his orcs killed Cenarius. This was rogue action done without the Warchief's approval. Also, he was under the influence of Mannnoroth, a DEMON. If the Night Elves can't see that it was not the actions of the Horde, but of a rogue Orc that did it, well, I don't know what to say.I DO see that Night Elves have some things in common interest with Alliance races, but they have the most history with Horde races in Warcraft III, as rocky as some parts were. Bottom line, when I started playing WoW, I was dumbfounded that Night Elves were not on the same side as Thrall. Therefore, if the reason the Worgen are joining the Alliance is because of the Night Elves' help with their curse, then it still doesn't make sense, because it is based on the Night Elves' alliance with the....Alliance. (that sounded redundant)
8-25-2009 @ 12:46PM
There's one big point here that seems overlooked. So many of the alliances in the Warcraft universe (on both sides) revolve around a central ideal: The enemy of my enemy is my friend (or its corollary, The friend of my enemy is my enemy). We already saw in the trailer that when the Greymane Wall breaks down, the Forsaken see it as an opportunity to take control of Gilneas (and with Southshore gone, why not...it would give them the whole region). The Worgen would be unable to fend off the Forsaken (and, by proxy, the whole of the Horde) by themselves, so they turn to the Alliance for help. Are they a natural fit with the Alliance? No. But they're already fighting the Horde.The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
8-25-2009 @ 12:49PM
@DaveVery true. However, I sometimes wonder if the lore writers completely ignore that SYLVANAS is the head of the Forsaken. I mean, would she REALLY be like, "HEY! Gilneas is available! Let's charge in and take over! CHHAARRRGEE!!!!!"No, she wouldn't. That's stupid.
8-25-2009 @ 1:05PM
"Also, I might note that the Tauren welcomed the Orcs to Kalimdor, and didn't consider them "a pain in the butt", but saw their need, and helped them."Did you actually read all the replies you've already got? Orcs intruded on the night elves' homeland, not the Tauren's. Tauren, as close to nature as they may be, are not particularly close to forests specifically; grasslands are more their thing. Night elves, on the other hand, live in trees and literally befriend some of them. "Grom Hellscream and his orcs killed Cenarius. This was rogue action done without the Warchief's approval. Also, he was under the influence of Mannnoroth, a DEMON. If the Night Elves can't see that it was not the actions of the Horde, but of a rogue Orc that did it, well, I don't know what to say."Grom wasn't *the* Warchief, but he was close to him politically and personally. And he chose to drink Mannoroth's blood - twice. You're expecting the night elves to have an unrealistic, nearly impossible level of willingness to extend good faith. Why? It makes no sense.
"Also, he was under the influence of Mannnoroth, a DEMON. If the Night Elves can't see that it was not the actions of the Horde, but of a rogue Orc that did it, well, I don't know what to say."Grom drank the demon blood of his own free will under the express purpose of killing Cenarius. The Night Elves can see that it was demonically influenced: why would that make them trust orcs? They consort with the Burning Legion. They kill beloved teachers. They rip down ancient Kaldorei forests. And then, when all is said and done and they finally wise up enough to turn on the demon that they enslaved THEMSELVES to, do they apologize? Do they say "Grom shouldn't have done this"? Do they take responsibility for the actions of one of their most legendary leaders and greatest heroes and make some effort at restitution?No. They cut down MORE of Ashenvale, and stick a memorial to Grom in the heart of ancient Kaldorei lands which are promptly infested by yet more demons. How is Grom Hellscream, who has a fortress in Orgrimmar named after him, a rogue orc? How is the hero who is celebrated in Harvest Festivals (look up The Horde's Hellscream sometimes) a rogue? Why would the Night Elves see him as an isolated Orc and not a representative of his people?Saying that Grom's actions were excused because he was under the influence of a demon is ridiculous. Grom is the first orc to drink the demon blood: no one forced him to, he chose to willingly imbibe it and in so doing convinced the others it was good to do so. Grom of all orcs doesn't get to claim "the demons made me do it." Grom's victory over Mannoroth is meaningless if he gets a pass on all the horrors he committed while in the sway of the demon blood. It was his choice to drink, his choice to slay Cenarius, and his choice to turn on Mannoroth. If you see his last act as heroic you have to acknowledge WHY it was heroic, and what he did before it that made it necessary.
8-25-2009 @ 1:23PM
First of all, NOWHERE did I say Grom's actions were excused.What I am keen on is that he repented of his actions before the end. Therefore, the Horde inherently forgives those actions. If one of YOUR own did something horrible, then repented of it, and changed his ways before the end, would you remember him as an absolute monster? No, you wouldn't. Also, WHY is he honored by the Horde? Is it for drinking demon blood? No, it is not. No side, Horde or Alliance, looks at that as good. Granted, an apology IS owed to the Night Elves, and should be given. But to label the Horde under the banner of every action that Grom has ever done is ridiculous. Would the Alliance like to be labeled under every loose-cannon, brash thing that Varian Wrynn says and does? I bet it wouldn't.Anyway, back to why the Night Elves are in the Alliance, my original question... I guess the issues are the killing of Cenarius and deforestation, both with no apology. Yeah, I can see why they'd be Alliance now.
8-25-2009 @ 1:40PM
@catharsis80Who are you to say what Sylvanas would and wouldn't do? Apparently they've already taken over Southshore (supposedly under her leadership), why not just snatch up another Alliance land and take the entire region?Plus, why are Alli getting their asses handed to them in this expansion? Horde basically clear cut Ashenvale, took Astranaar, and then the Forsaken take South Shore as well? Has a single Horde settlement fallen to the Alliance in this expansion? Talk about favoritism.Another thing...why are the forsaken so aggressive? Seems like there's a very finite number of forsaken. The way I understand it the Lich King lost control of a portion of the scourge, and Sylvanas rallied them together to create the forsaken. Now that they're cut off from the power of the scourge they don't have a way to make more forsaken. And yet this tiny rag-tag splinter faction seems to have have no problem rushing into battle and losing soldiers that cannot be replaced.
8-25-2009 @ 1:48PM
@LemonsWho am I to say what Sylvanas would do? Oh, I wouldn't know, I guess. But in that same line of thinking, neither would you, so why say that at all?But yeah, I do feel you on the rest of your comment. I play Horde, but I can see some favoritism there. However, Alliance ARE getting Worgen. :)
8-25-2009 @ 2:24PM
This is a really awesome thread of discussion, and I agree. One of the first things I said when I heard about all the Ally settlements falling was "Wow Alliance got the shaft." Now that I've had time to think about it though, it kinda makes sense, and here's why (IMHO, of course).Thrall is a wise leader. He sees the true enemy, and therefore there has been peace (albeit a very, VERY precarious one) between the Horde and Alliance for a long time. Garrosh becoming leader may have happened quickly and unexpectantly, at least on the Alliance side. Even if they DID see the change coming, I don't think all our declarations of war was expected. The Horde probably caught the Alliance unprepared. I mean, who would expect to be attacked by a group right when the world is coming apart?! Add to that the fact that Varian is a moron, as is Staghelm. Tyrande, Jaina, Malfurion, and Thrall are all more concerned with the fate of Azeroth. Magni is probably dealing with the Grim Batol fallout and the ERUPTION of Blackrock spire. The Gnomes are taking back their home. The Alliance is in dissaray.As for Sylvanas taking Southshore and Gilneas, well the Wrathgate incident proved Sylvanas has some issues in the Forsaken that she's dealing with. Do we really know if she's still in complete control anymore? Caiern (sp?) is dead, killed by Garrosh, there's also the possibility that she's biding her time, following orders, until she can safely get away without being called a traitor. All in all, this is gonna be an interesting expansion. I don't mind the Horde getting a decent bit of story. From an Alliance perspective, we've been getting a LOT of lore for a long time. I mean, Ulduar is basically a Dwarf nerdgasm.
8-25-2009 @ 2:29PM
I think a better question is: Why are the Forsaken in the Horde?I have been leveling a Blood Elf Paladin and she made it to Tarren Mill yesterday, where her Forsaken Allies tell her they need her to slaughter random peasants and collect their skulls. I felt like I was back in the DK starting area again. Only no one was here had the excuse that they were under the control of Arthas.Now that Sylvanas has proved that she can't control her little minions without Thrall, Varian and Jaina helping her, isn't it time for Thrall to step up and decide that his open door policy might be just a little too expansive?I am looking forward to creating a Worgen and have a nice little chat with some Undead invaders.
8-25-2009 @ 2:32PM
@GorevinorMy only regret is that your post is too long to fit into my Blizzard forum sig...
8-25-2009 @ 2:44PM
"Grom wasn't *the* Warchief, but he was close to him politically and personally. And he chose to drink Mannoroth's blood - twice. You're expecting the night elves to have an unrealistic, nearly impossible level of willingness to extend good faith. Why? It makes no sense."To be fair, lore suggests that Malfurion might have genuinely befriended Thrall if it weren't for Tyrande.
8-25-2009 @ 3:05PM
I'm a Hordie who thinks Varian is an over-aggressive fool, but he's not an insane racist. He has good reason for his dislike of the Orcs and the Forsaken, which are the two he really has issues with. Furthermore, there are major differences between the Forsaken and the Worgen - for example, they both have apothecaries busily experimenting, but the Forsaken apothecaries experimenting upon the living (including fellow members of the Horde) to find new ways to kill people horribly, while the Worgen apothecaries are experimenting upon other Worgen to find ways to retain their humanity.
8-26-2009 @ 5:43AM
Grom didn't act well, (far from it,) but surely the Night Elves should be used to people acting badly under the influence of demons. They seemed a lot more forgiving when it was one of their own, hell they even killed a load of their own to break Illidan out of the prison they put him in!
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