We Have a Tabard: It's not cheating if...
by Amanda Dean 
Sep 5th 2009 at 8:00PM
As I've mentioned before I'm not totally against PUGging raids. I find its actually an excellent way to get to know people on the server and sometimes a handy recruiting tool. Depending on your guild rules, there are some raids to PUG and some raids to save your lockout for your guild.
I had a guildie today all distraught because he was saved to Naxx 10 helping a guildie out. He apologized profusely when someone was putting together a "Badge Run Blitz" but couldn't heal it. At this point Naxx 10 is like running an extended heroic with more gold and shards. We've progressed beyond it, so lockouts are fair game.
I get a wee bit crabbier when folks get locked out of our current progression. We're actually still working on Ulduar 10, and need to draw upon any available resources to move forward. Guildies can feel free to run Naxx, Vault, and Obsidian Sanctum to their heart's content. Usually when someone asks for my blessing to run with another group, I give it if they have to miss guild times or we're unable to get into the group.
I've been considering Trial of the Crusader. Since it's a relatively short instance - just five bosses, no trash, it's a lot like vault. So is it cheating to run ToC with another guild or a PUG? I'm leaning toward no, but you may think differently.
For my guild it simply makes sense to get as many guildies into ToC 25 PUGS as possible. We simply do not have the manpower/gear to run it on our own. We're pretty well known on the server, so when one of us gets an invite, usually we can bring in a small army of us. It's been great to get some 245 gear, Triumph badges, and experience.
We do, however have what it takes to run 10-mans. I'm still inclined to say "PUG it when you get the chance." This way it doesn't cut into our raid progression time. As an extra added bonus, folks have a chance to go when it's most convenient for them. We've got an over-abundance of DPS compared to our tank and healer ranks and a mess of alts. Encouraging PUGing is one way to get everyone involved. Also more guildies can get into the raid to get their gear, badges, and experience.
The downside of PUGing into ToC is that there's no guarantee that the whole guild is unlocking the heroic mode. This point is moot if they will be PUGing into heroic versions as well.
If you agree with me or have other ideas for Trial of the Crusader, you may want to consider your policy and make sure that it's public.
WoW.com offers a plethora of information on guild leadership and guild membership. Be sure to check out Scott Andrew's Weekly Column Officer's Quarters and keep an eye on the community with Mike Schramm's Guildwatch.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Features, Raiding, (Guild Leadership) We Have a Tabard
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Aarkan Sep 5th 2009 8:07PM
I'm pretty sure you only need one person flagged to start the heroic raids. Have fun though, this time heroic means something.
Tzivya Sep 5th 2009 8:26PM
seriously, the learning curve between normal and heroic is a bit brutal. We finished our 10 man trial, and figured, 'let's give heroic a go!'. Didn't read much on it, just went in. There were the obvious things, like everything hits harder and has more hp... And then there were the more inobvious things, like the fire you don't stand in is now a dot, and if you don't kill the first guy in 3 minutes or so, the worms join the fray anyway.
We're a solid group, but that was pretty intimidating, and we decided to come back after we'd researched it a bit more. But I will say, the collective 'wtf!' that came when we thought we had things under control, and suddenly the doors opened and those worms slithered in, was priceless. :)
Viper007Bond Sep 5th 2009 8:39PM
Yeah, heroic ain't a joke.
shkss Sep 5th 2009 9:59PM
We did that today, after a quick half an hour clean clear of normal, we went to heroic, and got completely massacred. You can only do heroic if you're on the ball.
On a side note, I'm a little disappointed at how much of a face roll normal 10 man was.
Eternauta Sep 5th 2009 10:48PM
*this time heroic means something.*
THANK GOD!
I hope they keep following that direction and don't nerf it...
/wishful thinking
Aarkan Sep 5th 2009 10:53PM
I really think this is a great way to do it. It lets everyone see the content and get some gear and the people who really want a challenge and the people who are going to be challenged have a solid and difficult heroic mode. The people crying that 10man was done perfect in a couple of days really make me laugh because they're gonna be the people like us who go in and are shocked and have to work at it. If the #1 ace guilds can't beat it then we have absolutely no shot. Also we see that Blizzard isn't afraid to put ultra-high level fights in like yogg0. Raiding has never been better.
Jewbanks Sep 5th 2009 11:39PM
You arent joking about hard. Our 25 man has some of the easier ulduar hard modes down. Ignis speed kill a couple speed kills on hodir, and xt.
Jewbanks Sep 5th 2009 11:41PM
sorry i posted to soon
As I was saying though ToC25 hard mode just smashed are face in we didnt even make it through the beasts
Our 10 man is much better and all thats standing between us and our drake is hard mode Mimi. So hopefully tomorrow night well do decently in the 10 man heroic
comedown Sep 6th 2009 1:43AM
Whether this says more about the Ulduar10 Hard Modes or the ToC ones, I have no clue. Coming from a guild that has done every Uld10 Hard Mode multiple times (at least the ones on the meta, not Yogg0 or Alg226), we got face-raped by the Beasts in ToC10 Hard.
I'm pretty sure thats the way it ought to be. The top teir of guilds didnt have a problem and those at least above average should struggle some at the begining, but down it. But given Blizzard's current view on things, do we want to take bets on when the nerfs start? i give it 3 weeks.
Narai Sep 5th 2009 9:45PM
Don't forget that thanks to the Tribute system on heroic ToC10/25 it will save your group to the instance after a boss attempt regardless of if you are successful or not.
So if you're pugging it, make sure you're not getting yourself saved to a fail group.
Heilig Sep 5th 2009 10:01PM
"We do, however have what it takes to run 10-mans. I'm still inclined to say "PUG it when you get the chance." This way it doesn't cut into our raid progression time."
If you're pugging the current top tier of raiding content, what progression raids would they be cutting into?
evil drill Sep 14th 2009 5:56AM
PuG away I say....
SledgeHammer Sep 6th 2009 12:15AM
Hey where is the Saturday Loot? Last week you said this would be a weekly thing I made sure I logged on to WOW.com tonight to find no free goods. What is up with that? Your guild steel all the goodies you said that were going to us fans?
nwoods13 Sep 6th 2009 12:58AM
??? ok... im prolly gonna get downrated for this... but we havent seen an addon spotlight since june D= thats like 3 months... I enjoyed 90% of the addons u had on there...
any idea when ull haave a new one???
comedown Sep 6th 2009 1:39AM
Unless a guild has had Ulduar25 Hard Modes on farm for months, the noticeable jump in item level should make it important enough for most guilds to even run 10s "in house."
My guild still measures progress by accomplishments in 25s, but there is a significant difference in performance from people decked out in 232s vs 219s-226s. At the beginning of new Hard Mode attempts, min/maxing becomes fairly consequential, and I dont see why you'd want to let 245 weapons not reach your best DPS because you couldnt spend 90 minutes running 2-3 10man groups.
Is it cheating if your guild primarily runs 25s? No. Is it worthwhile for even 25man guilds to fit this welfare program of an instance into their raiding schedule till people have the gear they need? God yes.
Vinna Sep 6th 2009 6:11AM
if you want your guildies available to your toc run and also to be able to pug it, just so they can get in there and get geared. I would think the best thing to do is schedule your guild run early in the week. So if you schedule it for a tuesday or wednesday, it's not bad to say "hey guys, hold off on pugging it until the guild run is over" It still gives them plenty of time to pug it, even after the guild run.
I always got crabby too when people would run stuff we were working on as a guild. But I'd see it all the time, the guild is sitting there trying to fill a raid, and there's some guildie that could fill the spot and we could start, yet they already pugged it. Some people just don't have any patience or team spirit. In my experience these kinda people are in it for just their own personal progression and not that of the guild. Personally, I'd rather run with my guild than do a pug anyday...
Asaki Sep 6th 2009 7:25AM
I think Blizzard went in the right direction with totc. The normal modes can be ran by whatever group you trow at it, so even the people without capable raiding guild can see all the goodies. And the heroic modes can even have a Yogg +0 raid guild some troubles.
Let's hope Blizzard keeps this up :)
Nazgûl Sep 6th 2009 10:20AM
Agreed. A raid that is PuG friendly for casual raiders and brickwall difficult for hardcore raiders.
Well done Blizzard, you actually achieved balance!
Noctiluca Sep 6th 2009 10:41AM
My guild officers told me we are not allowed to PUG raids, yet the only people that ever go on guilds runs to raid are the core group of progression raiders. So, the rest of us just sit around and never get invited into the raids. I do more DPS than half the "progression" group. It's complete bullshit.
If they were allowing us to go on raids, I could understand not PUGing, but that's not the case. They tell us we shouldn't be locked out in case they need a backup, yet in the last 6 months, they have never once needed a sub.
When they pay my subscription fee, they can tell me I am not allowed to PUG. In the meantime, LF guild that doesn't suck.
StalkerofFlames Sep 6th 2009 11:41AM
More power to you. Probably should have jumped ship four months back, IMO.