Officers' Quarters: Guild leader loot rage
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.This week's e-mail describes a fairly typical loot drama situation. What makes it unique is that it involves the guild leader, who did not handle the issue very well at all, as you will see. As officers, we have to be very careful about how we handle loot for our own characters. We have to set the example for how we'd like our members to deal with loot issues. Let's look at the e-mail first. Then I'll talk about what this guild leader should have done differently.
Hello --
I have written to you before regarding an attendance issue in the guild I was in. Your response was very timely and incredibly helpful -- once 3.2 hit we made raids happen a lot quicker.
Recently, we made an adventure into Ulduar. We did very well for a small guild and got up to Thorim in one night. After a few wipes, one person had to leave and was replaced with a new person. We made the decision to have the new person switch to his DPS spec and had one of our existing DPS go to a tank spec. We downed him that attempt (which was awesome). I was the Master Looter, so I opened up the chest and a Tier token dropped, along with the epic mace Legacy of Thunder. The DPS who had switched to tank was a Warrior, and the mace was a huge upgrade for him. I said in raid, "Roll for Legacy". The Warrior rolled and a Paladin, the guild master, rolled against him. The Warrior won the roll, so I gave the item to him. The GM whispered me a message along the lines of "way to do loot". I didn't think too much of his comment, and logged off for the night.
I logged back on the next day to find myself demoted from Officer rank. My question for you is: Was giving the mace to a player who had been a tank for the fight it dropped off of when they won the roll out of line and worth getting demoted for? There was a confrontation which led to my leaving the guild. I only want to know if I was wrong in giving the item to them, when our loot rules had never specified that I shouldn't have.
Thank you for any response!
--Anonymous
It's hard for me to say whether you did the right thing or not according to your own rules, since I don't know what those rules are. You seem to think that you were following the proper procedure. Being the master looter for raids, I'm inclined to believe that you know your guild's loot rules intimately. And if my assumptions are correct, then you absolutely did the right thing and your guild leader had no right to demote you.
Even if you had messed up somehow, it hardly seems like the demotion would be a just consequence. I don't blame you for feeling bitter about the situation or for leaving your guild.
Do I think that an alt spec should get an upgrade over a main spec? No -- that's not a system I would ever recommend, even if that person were using their alt spec for the fight where the loot dropped. (I assume your GM is a tanking main and the warrior was not.)
That is not the point here, however. Whatever the rules are, the guild leader clearly signed off on said rules. If he thought it might be unfair to someone, he is the first person who could do something about it. But he seemed fine with the rules as they were, until it meant losing out on a nice drop for his own toon.
If the rules were so vague as to put you in a difficult position where priority was unclear, then the guild leader has to take the blame for that as well. In the heat of the moment is not the place to redefine loot expectations, alter rules, or discuss exceptions. The way it seems to me is that your guild leader demoted you in a fit of selfish loot rage. If anyone else had lost the roll on the mace, I doubt it would have been an issue.
This is probably the worst way he could have handled this situation and the results are dire. Now his guild has lost a valuable raider and officer. Not to mention, the members who remain have now seen that it's OK to throw a fit if you don't win a roll. So your former guild leader shouldn't be surprised to see loot drama springing up all over the place. He has set the tone. Now he has to live with it.
I'm sure the person who won the roll feels pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing now, as well, if he's still in the guild.
Everyone likes getting upgrades, even guild leaders. But we have a greater responsibility to show poise, self-control, and a fair-minded nature when confronted with a personal loot situation. We need to behave the way we want our own members to behave in similar circumstances.
Let's take a look at how this particular guild leader could have handled this situation better. When the mace dropped and you opened up the rolls to anyone, the guild leader should have known what the rules were. If he didn't know, he should have calmly asked for a clarification. (Yes, it would have been a bit embarrassing, but what he did later was far more embarrassing, in my opinion.) You would have explained why the paladin had a right to roll on the mace for his DPS spec. At that point, your guild leader should have gone along with the rule, provided you were correct about it. (Never change your own rules on the fly to benefit yourself -- that's the most blatantly selfish thing you can possibly do!)
Alternatively, the GL could have waited until after the raid to speak with you in private about why you made that decision. I applaud him for waiting till later to say something rather than cause a scene in the middle of the run. However, his sarcastic comment was not particularly helpful. In fact, it's pretty passive/aggressive -- as was his ninja demotion while you were offline.
After losing the roll, your guild leader could have had a conversation with the other officers about whether the rules are fair and effective at gearing up raiding members properly. If changes are made at this point, they need to be presented to the guild in a constructive way. The guild leader could have written something like this: "Losing the roll on the mace made me realize that our rules are not effective at gearing up our main specs to perform their best in raids. The officers felt that we needed to revisit our rolling priorities to make sure our characters are getting the gear they need to help us progress. We value players with dual specs and we want to support their flexibility. At the same time, we need to recognize that items don't benefit our raids when they aren't being used during most progression encounters."
Due to the way your guild leader behaved, the message the guild actually got from this situation was, "I will throw a fit if I don't get the loot I want, and you should, too." And that can only hurt the guild. Trust me: You're better off in a different guild.
I realize it can be disappointing to lose out on gear, but we as officers have to keep a healthy perspective. Loot is fun and can be a nice status symbol, but its primary function is to help your guild progress. Achievements like Observed will always be a better status symbol than any single drop. Help your guild first and foremost, and other good things will come as a result of that.
/salute
PS: I realize I owe everyone a column about guild currency and achievements in Cataclysm. Look for that next Monday!
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Angus Sep 7th 2009 1:06PM
I've lost some very nice upgrades because the rules were set up to be fair and other tanks were ahead of me in ep/gp ratio.
And every time I figured the following: I'll get it next time. That guy with the much better trinket/weapon/armor will be there next week with me and the upgrade might make things easier. ;)
The GM was wrong and should enjoy what usually happens in these situations.
A lot of people will be leaving because it appears as giving someone else loot over him will get them in trouble. Who really wants that?
Ensane Sep 7th 2009 7:48PM
I agree the Gm was wrong, however, i can understand him being bitter about it. The only fair way is to have pre-established rules for this kind of situation. If you dont have these rules, the only fair way of dealing with it is by having the person who switched specs pick a type of gear to roll on at the start (such as dps or tank) and can only roll on that type of gear for the entirety of the run. That makes sure that the person cant just pick upgrades based on what he sees dropping or try to roll on two different types of gear.
Elmouth Sep 7th 2009 10:23PM
No kidding, you got demoted for giving a dps weapon to a tank rather than the dpser that rolled on it (who just so happened to be the GL).
No shit sherlock.
Thats why you don't trust random noobs with Loot Master. Unless pre-established, only the roles that were used during X fight matter when rolling on loot. In doubt, ask before distributing loot.
The guy obviously made a mistake, and the GL does w/e he wants with his guild.
ZakuraX Sep 8th 2009 10:09AM
To Elmouth:
So you are saying that the warrior should not be allowed to roll for his main specc when he changed specc to help out the guild?
So what he should have done, was to have stayed dps and let the entire raid wait for them to find a tank instead?
The person in that post, if I understood it correctly, gave him main specc gear, not off specc.
So for someone who wants the guild to go forward and down new bosses to get punnished for it, instead of a fair chance for the gear he would have gotten if he did not change specc to be thought of as wrong. Well, some people only think about themselves, and would probably never have changed their specc anyways, just to be jackasses.
Evelinda Sep 8th 2009 11:48AM
yeah, el, actually he got demoted for giving a tanking weapon to a tank, instead of the gm, who also happened to be a tank. The issue here is that the warrior tank who got the mace, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45892 for reference, was a dps spec warrior that they asked to tank for this boss.
As far as i'm concerned, if you ask someone to spec a certain way for a raid, even just one boss in that raid, then they should be entitled to loot from that spec. Sure, they may have been dpsing the entire rest of the time, but you specifically asked them to tank thorim, so why shouldnt they get tank loot?
And interestingly, what you think is the right thing to do is actually exactly what he did. So maybe he's not a "random noob" after all. The guy DIDNT make a mistake, and the GL apparently DOES do what he wants with his guild, which is a totally bs attitude to have. If youre going in with the attitude "this is my guild and i can do what i want" youre going to find yourself the king of a very small kingdom...
micgillam Sep 8th 2009 12:10PM
I pug a lot, especially while leveling, and when I was leveling my druid (spec'd kitty, and this was before dual-spec was implemented) I often (in fact, usually) filled the tank or healer roles, meaning I had to have the gear banked away for those rolls. Usually I would only roll need on gear for the role I was filling at the time. Sometimes I would ask at the start of the run if everyone was cool with me rolling on gear for a different purpose than what I was doing (i.e. "I know I'm tanking, but is everyone alright with me rolling only on healer loot? My healing set is in need of upgrades"), which was usually cool with the group, but I generally wouldn't do it (wouldn't even ask) if it was going to have me rolling against a lot of other people in the group (i.e. rolling on caster loot when there's a resto shaman and a mage in thre group). If an item dropped that wasn't for my current role but also wasn't usable for anyone else in the group, I'd generally ask before rolling and I don't think I ever had anyone say no.
The point is, communication. In this situation, (I'm not saying Anonymous was wrong but...) if he had said, following the rolls: "OffspecTank and GLeader are both primary DPS, OffspecTank won the roll and therefore the item, any objections?" then the forum is open and the GL is really forced to either make his complaint publicly, at which point either a) an error can be corrected if the guild loot rules should give the item to the GL, or b) the GL will have to be open about taking the item he isn't entitled to, which will probably be bad for the raid and the guild, or c) the GL won't speak up, at which point reprimanding the lootmaster later for it will just make him look like an even bigger passive-aggressive douche, and more likely he'll just feel forced to let it go.
If everyone knows the rules (whatever they may be), it's either being handled right or a correction needs to be made upfront. If it's being handled right and everyone knows it, the GL will run the risk of losing a lot more than the item by trying to punish the masterlooter for enforces pre-agreed rules.
Kaze Sep 9th 2009 2:00PM
Ok so everyone has 2 specs: main spec and off spec. You should pick one spec to roll on per run. (Ideally your main spec i.e. preferred spec) That way healers aren't rolling on tank gear etc.
I'm a druid tank but sometimes my guild has too many tanks for raids so I'll dps as cat. However, tank is my _main spec_ so I pass on every single dps piece that drops and only roll on tank gear even if I'm not actively tanking for that evening.
With that said in the original posters story we have the 2 players
Warrior: mainspec was DPS
Paladin GM: mainspec was tanking
Even though the warrior was asked to tank for the one fight his _mainspec_ is still _dps_ so he should only have rolled on dps gear. It seems like he just came in for the one fight and I assume no dps gear dropped from Thorim so he decided to grab whatever shinies he could.
The paladin was entitled to the mace unless the warrior had declared he was rolling on tank stuff and not dps gear. So the original poster did screw up unless it was agreed on prior to starting the fight that the warrior would only roll on tank loot from then on.
With that said even though I think the Paladin was robbed of the mace I don't think he handled it well at all and think he did mistreat the original poster.
slimj091 Sep 10th 2009 9:41AM
the only times i've ever gotten frustrated when i didn't win loot is when something drops that rarely ever drops that is a huge upgrade for me. of course i say i've gotten frustrated meaning a headslap, or a short line of expletive's under my breath. never have i lashed out at anyone in any of my guilds over loot issues, and i think it's very poor character to do so.
like scott said. everyone loves getting loot, and no one loves losing loot. but i would rather be miles behind gear wise to the rest of my guild than acting like a child when i don't get my way.
Sage Sep 10th 2009 10:28AM
I disagree with your argument that the player should not have been able to roll on the items because he was a different spec for the fight.
The guild asked the player, who was a different spec up until that point, to change specs because they needed him to do so or else they could not continue with the raid. Due to that, it should only reason that the player be able to roll on the item that dropped for his primary spec, and perhaps even for his (currently playing) off spec.
The guild leader melted down when she should have been thinking how nice it was to beat the boss and get (the raid) anything at all due to the player changing specs mid raid in support of the guild.
Hansbo Sep 7th 2009 1:46PM
I think you misunderstood (I did at first as well).
The article writer assumed that the GM was using his alt spec and that the DPS warrior (who tanked in this particular scenario) also was using his alt spec. Therefore, the DPS warrior should have gotten the piece, since it was his main spec (even though he didn't use it at the time).
Loot rules in guilds should be different from those in PUGs. In PUGs, you roll on the spec you're running with, but in guilds you roll with the one you MOST OFTEN play as, since that's what benefits the guild the most. And I think that's what the article writer was implying.
swampsquatch Sep 8th 2009 2:04PM
I personally love this column so no offense to Scott, or the person who wrote in, but they both made the article confusing.
Warrior - main spec dps, was asked to tank a certain fight. A paladin, the guild leader, was also a tank. A tanking mace dropped and they both rolled for it. Warrior won. GL got pissy.
The person who wrote in made it sound like the mace that dropped was a DPS mace and he gave it to the person who's main spec was dps. Then Scott made it clear that the mace was for tanking and obviously shouldn't have went to the person who's main spec was DPS (which I am with him 100% on main spec>off spec). The later on Scott says the Pally could have rolled on dps gear making it seem like he confused the person who was asked to tank to be a pally and not a warrior.
Since I have read through it a couple times I understand the story and my opinion is main spec>off spec. Because, had a dps weapon dropped the warrior who tanked would have wanted it I am sure, and even though the guild leader did do some cry baby things, I would have to hope he would give the dps weapon to the main spec dps.
swampsquatch Sep 8th 2009 2:10PM
I also forgot to add, couldn't the GM or Master Looter just said, "Oh my mistake, main spec over offspec," and then traded the item to the Guild Leader and solved all of that? Make the loot rules more clear next time. Because, like I said, if they dropped Thorim and a DPS weapon dropped, I am sure the warrior wouldn't have been happy if he didn't get to roll being that he tanked that fight when DPS is his main spec.
Cyanea Sep 7th 2009 1:16PM
We allow rolls by mainspec, and we define mainspec as what you are NORMALLY. We have a Fury Warrior who sometimes goes tank for us when our OT can't make it. She does it as a favor to us, so it's very unfair to her to force her to skip out on gear for her mainspec. When a tank item drops that neither of the tanks want, she gets priority for it over greed rolls for vendoring.
devilsei Sep 7th 2009 2:07PM
Yeah, thats how my guild handles it as well.
You are allowed to roll for mainspec and win "One tier piece" and one "epic". Mainspec is, as we define it, what you are normally when raiding.
IF no one rolls for mainspec, it goes down to off spec, where anyone can roll for it (that can use it of course), and is allowed to win as much of the offspec loot as they can win (though its generally encouraged not to be a loot wh**e).
If neither occurs, its disenchanted.
It would of been nice to know what the guild's loot rules were, as we are stuck assuming a little too much on it. What I have to say though, is that the dps warrior shouldn't of rolled on something he will only occasionally use, while the tank-turned-dps would need it. The thing about offspec is, of course anything in a current raid will be a huge upgrade. Maybe the pally was being selfish, but he still should of gotten the weapon since he was the normal tank.
Of course though the reaction was far from acceptable.
Clbull Sep 7th 2009 1:17PM
To be fair, it depends on the loot rules. Some guilds say that your mainspec is the spec you're using, but you asked this person to switch to tank after a DPS left, and to me, it only seems fair to still allow this guy to roll on DPS loot, as he was DPSing for most of the run.
I mean its not like the DPS wanted to tank, you needed him to become an offtank to keep the group going, so it only seems fair to still allow him to roll on DPS loot.
As for the GM. If giving the mace to the other DPS who was tanking fair according to your loot rules, tell him "According to the loot rules, you lost the roll fair and square. And since you demoted me unfairly because you didn't get the mace, I am glad that I have quit your guild."
Doddilus Sep 7th 2009 1:30PM
What a terrible weapon for a paladin to get all butt hurt over, it's way better for a warrior. Also 25man Flame Leviathan drops the best tanking weapon in Ulduar - Titanguard... the first freakin boss and it's very pugable with 0 towers
finalmasterm Sep 7th 2009 1:39PM
This isn't a discussion about good/better weapons for a tank, regardless of their class. It's a discussion about wither a player did the right thing.
I feel he had done the right thing. Would the boss been possible without his help in tanking, probably not if he had to switch in the first place. Getting the mace is like a "Thank you" for being DS'd so that he was valuable in a raid. Also, the weapon stayed in the guild, it isn't as if the pug had won it, so I see no harm.
Doddilus Sep 7th 2009 2:51PM
The argument is between a warrior tank(offspec) and a pally tank(main spec/GM) over a mace that is not very well itemized for a paladin. I don't care what happens in the rest of the story. For me the argument ends there. I brought up 25FL because there is a much better tanking weapon that is arguably easier to get.
In the end the GM is being a dick and doesn't know what gear is good for him or better for others. The rest of the story is childish guild drama, no offense to Mr. Anonymous for being on the receiving end of it. He's better off having left.
Paintman Sep 7th 2009 1:39PM
Find a better guild, and bring your friends with you. ANy GM that demotes you without warning or discussion for something as petty as a purple is not worth your time.
Leviathon Sep 7th 2009 1:39PM
This reminded me of my last guild in a way. The feral druid tank was going to retire from the game so they asked me to tank (I was just a DPS feral druid) and so I said I would. Well when tank gear would drop they wouldn't give it to me and instead would give it to someone else for their offspec. Course that guilds loot system was your typical DKP system that heavily favors veteran players in the guild and basically left newer members in the dust and so I ended up leaving a few weeks ago (they even mentioned that they have had many veteran members leave due to the way the DKP was done).