Officers' Quarters: Guild leader loot rage
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.This week's e-mail describes a fairly typical loot drama situation. What makes it unique is that it involves the guild leader, who did not handle the issue very well at all, as you will see. As officers, we have to be very careful about how we handle loot for our own characters. We have to set the example for how we'd like our members to deal with loot issues. Let's look at the e-mail first. Then I'll talk about what this guild leader should have done differently.
Hello --
I have written to you before regarding an attendance issue in the guild I was in. Your response was very timely and incredibly helpful -- once 3.2 hit we made raids happen a lot quicker.
Recently, we made an adventure into Ulduar. We did very well for a small guild and got up to Thorim in one night. After a few wipes, one person had to leave and was replaced with a new person. We made the decision to have the new person switch to his DPS spec and had one of our existing DPS go to a tank spec. We downed him that attempt (which was awesome). I was the Master Looter, so I opened up the chest and a Tier token dropped, along with the epic mace Legacy of Thunder. The DPS who had switched to tank was a Warrior, and the mace was a huge upgrade for him. I said in raid, "Roll for Legacy". The Warrior rolled and a Paladin, the guild master, rolled against him. The Warrior won the roll, so I gave the item to him. The GM whispered me a message along the lines of "way to do loot". I didn't think too much of his comment, and logged off for the night.
I logged back on the next day to find myself demoted from Officer rank. My question for you is: Was giving the mace to a player who had been a tank for the fight it dropped off of when they won the roll out of line and worth getting demoted for? There was a confrontation which led to my leaving the guild. I only want to know if I was wrong in giving the item to them, when our loot rules had never specified that I shouldn't have.
Thank you for any response!
--Anonymous
It's hard for me to say whether you did the right thing or not according to your own rules, since I don't know what those rules are. You seem to think that you were following the proper procedure. Being the master looter for raids, I'm inclined to believe that you know your guild's loot rules intimately. And if my assumptions are correct, then you absolutely did the right thing and your guild leader had no right to demote you.
Even if you had messed up somehow, it hardly seems like the demotion would be a just consequence. I don't blame you for feeling bitter about the situation or for leaving your guild.
Do I think that an alt spec should get an upgrade over a main spec? No -- that's not a system I would ever recommend, even if that person were using their alt spec for the fight where the loot dropped. (I assume your GM is a tanking main and the warrior was not.)
That is not the point here, however. Whatever the rules are, the guild leader clearly signed off on said rules. If he thought it might be unfair to someone, he is the first person who could do something about it. But he seemed fine with the rules as they were, until it meant losing out on a nice drop for his own toon.
If the rules were so vague as to put you in a difficult position where priority was unclear, then the guild leader has to take the blame for that as well. In the heat of the moment is not the place to redefine loot expectations, alter rules, or discuss exceptions. The way it seems to me is that your guild leader demoted you in a fit of selfish loot rage. If anyone else had lost the roll on the mace, I doubt it would have been an issue.
This is probably the worst way he could have handled this situation and the results are dire. Now his guild has lost a valuable raider and officer. Not to mention, the members who remain have now seen that it's OK to throw a fit if you don't win a roll. So your former guild leader shouldn't be surprised to see loot drama springing up all over the place. He has set the tone. Now he has to live with it.
I'm sure the person who won the roll feels pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing now, as well, if he's still in the guild.
Everyone likes getting upgrades, even guild leaders. But we have a greater responsibility to show poise, self-control, and a fair-minded nature when confronted with a personal loot situation. We need to behave the way we want our own members to behave in similar circumstances.
Let's take a look at how this particular guild leader could have handled this situation better. When the mace dropped and you opened up the rolls to anyone, the guild leader should have known what the rules were. If he didn't know, he should have calmly asked for a clarification. (Yes, it would have been a bit embarrassing, but what he did later was far more embarrassing, in my opinion.) You would have explained why the paladin had a right to roll on the mace for his DPS spec. At that point, your guild leader should have gone along with the rule, provided you were correct about it. (Never change your own rules on the fly to benefit yourself -- that's the most blatantly selfish thing you can possibly do!)
Alternatively, the GL could have waited until after the raid to speak with you in private about why you made that decision. I applaud him for waiting till later to say something rather than cause a scene in the middle of the run. However, his sarcastic comment was not particularly helpful. In fact, it's pretty passive/aggressive -- as was his ninja demotion while you were offline.
After losing the roll, your guild leader could have had a conversation with the other officers about whether the rules are fair and effective at gearing up raiding members properly. If changes are made at this point, they need to be presented to the guild in a constructive way. The guild leader could have written something like this: "Losing the roll on the mace made me realize that our rules are not effective at gearing up our main specs to perform their best in raids. The officers felt that we needed to revisit our rolling priorities to make sure our characters are getting the gear they need to help us progress. We value players with dual specs and we want to support their flexibility. At the same time, we need to recognize that items don't benefit our raids when they aren't being used during most progression encounters."
Due to the way your guild leader behaved, the message the guild actually got from this situation was, "I will throw a fit if I don't get the loot I want, and you should, too." And that can only hurt the guild. Trust me: You're better off in a different guild.
I realize it can be disappointing to lose out on gear, but we as officers have to keep a healthy perspective. Loot is fun and can be a nice status symbol, but its primary function is to help your guild progress. Achievements like Observed will always be a better status symbol than any single drop. Help your guild first and foremost, and other good things will come as a result of that.
/salute
PS: I realize I owe everyone a column about guild currency and achievements in Cataclysm. Look for that next Monday!
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
Kevin Sep 7th 2009 1:41PM
I have seen this before, GMs claiming all the loot for themselves first just because they're the GM. Rather annoying :(
Superthrust Sep 7th 2009 2:01PM
Anonymous Writer,
If you are horde, i believe you should transfer. I had a similar event happen to me, but had to deal with ventrilo. The guild leader and her husband were the only ones allowed to talk, along with their "group of friends", whom were not all officers. When another person talked, they barked to shut up, then allowed certain others to talk during boss fights and looting.
When it came time for the NEED to talk, as in "i am mind controlled" or "ice blocked", they would have 'ez mute' buttons setup in vent so they could mute you for the rest of the fight. When another officer was given a chance to raid, i believe he was tired of it. When he tried doing the SAME thing to them, he was instantly removed from raid, demoted and kicked from vent, but he didn't stay too long in the guild afterwards.
My point to this story, even though not dealing with loot, it deals with a similar point...Sometimes, people can be just whiney to the point that they think the rules do not apply to them as well. Just something you gotta keep an eye out for in your next guild.
Good Luck!
Jabadabadana Sep 7th 2009 2:18PM
What the hell does being horde have to do with it? Or alliance for that matter?
And what does vent control have to do with the article?
No GM, Officer, or Loot master should ever decide that they have priority over loot due to their status, period.
Superthrust Sep 7th 2009 4:30PM
well, i started out asking if the writer was horde because i was going to go a different direction with this post, but decided against it.
And my vent story has alot to do with this article. How SOME guild masters, not all, but some think they are above their own rules and sometimes grant special privledges to other members based on "how they like them better".
Its no different than a guild going in saying "hay, open rolls people!" and then the guild leader saying later "oh, mount dropped! I am taking it cause im guild leader", even though the MT or healer rolled a complete 100 and "won" it.
Jooohn Sep 7th 2009 10:43PM
Why the hell are people down voting you?
You're right.
Honestly I've taken a brake from WoW because of all the arrogant jerks.
I just faction changed and I can say both sides are equally fail with people.
Maybe its just cause if I lead a raid the only person with priority is the highest roller...pug or guild.
Superthrust Sep 7th 2009 11:10PM
They are downvoting me because i am right. Just like alot of other posts i make and other people make. When someone comes here and speaks the truth, it gets downvoted and hidden, unless someone is being stupid and arrogant.
Sleutel Sep 7th 2009 2:02PM
The letter is a bit unclear as to what exactly happened. Here are the possibilities I see:
1.) The GM is a main-spec tank and the person who got the loot (PGL) is an off-spec tank.
2.) The GM is an off-spec tank and the PGL is an off-spec tank.
3.) The GM is an off-spec tank and the PGL is a main-spec tank.
Unless this guild has The Stupidest Loot Rules Ever, where people roll based on what they happened to be specced to at the moment versus what their actual primary spec is, there should not have been an open roll in situations 1 or 3. The ONLY people eligible for the mace should have been main-spec tanks; an off-spec tank should only have been allowed to roll if no main-spec tanks wanted the item.
I'm guessing we were either in situation 1 or 2. If 1, the Master Looter was a moron or the guild's loot rules were retarded. However, this did not justify the GM's reaction. This is EXACTLY why the system has been changed to allow BOP items to be traded to other eligible players for a two-hour window. The GM should have spoken to the ML, explained that main spec > off-spec, and asked the ML to have the PGL trade it over to the GM. Or, if the loot rules were just very poorly thought out, the GM could have addressed them after raid with all of the officers, to change them GOING FORWARD (NOT change them retroactively to benefit the GM).
Nazgûl Sep 7th 2009 4:35PM
As best I can tell, it seems like the Guild Master was a main spec tank and the PGL was also a main spec tank who was previously asked to go into the raid as DPS and was then asked to convert back to tank for the Thorim fight.
Sleutel Sep 7th 2009 4:55PM
@Nazgûl: Well then that would bring in 2.) The GM is a main-spec tank and the PGL is a main-spec tank, which would work exactly like #2. The point still stands.
Haiko Sep 7th 2009 2:12PM
Agreed with most comments above: the GM acted wrong demoting this soon.
Even if the Master Looter was not handling the loot according to guildrules (a not so big guild with relatively little raiding experience might still run with their TBC rules, though there is now dual.. or this situation was not foreseen otherwise in the rules... or the lootmaster was dead wrong) the GM had the chance to speak up during the rolling phase and even after on the way to the next boss he could've called for a short break to redirect all raiders to the lootrules section on the forums to point out the looting wasn't handled as it should've been.
Items can be traded amongst raiders since last patch, so even after the item was given away it could've still be given to the GM. And even after that, a ticket to a Game Master does the trick.
Demoting overnight is the worst thing that can happen to an active officer. I once went against the GM who demanded in our casual, non-raiding guild, that everyone should uplink their professions to the website on a daily basis so everyone knew what everyone could craft at all times. A weekly upink would suffice. This brought me from officer (and former stand-in GM) back to "new member". Don't think i've ever been hurt that much ingame before and ever since in 3 yrs of play.
So, best find a nice guild mate.. And bring your friends with you ^^
/salute Haiko
boydsoule Sep 7th 2009 2:33PM
Well said!
Anonymous Sep 7th 2009 2:42PM
In my opinion, it doesn't really matter what the situation was, the guild leader handled it poorly. Regardless of what the rules were, he was obviously butthurt that he didn't end up with the item and took his bit of "revenge" for it. I expect guild leaders to put the guild and the individuals in it before themselves, and sometimes this means they have to do the mature thing and suck up a raw deal (although hopefully they make sure that that particular thing won't happen again as well). But furthermore, in this case, it didn't even necessarily need to be a raw deal, since it might have been possible to talk to the officer giving loot and the person who received it and they might have been mature enough to give him the item after all. At any rate, I wouldn't want to be in a guild where the guild leader throws hissy fits over loot anyways, so maybe it worked out for the best.
turkeyspit Sep 7th 2009 2:46PM
Successful guilds understand that Main Spec will always take priority over an Alt spec (or even an Alt character). Unsuccessful guilds do not.
ambermist Sep 7th 2009 4:45PM
What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Most of us agree main spec > off spec.
The problem was not who got the loot, really. The problem was the reaction to who got the loot and how it was handled afterward.
Readers who get that are successful. Readers who don't are unsuccessful. CWIDT?
turkeyspit Sep 7th 2009 7:38PM
@Amber
Sit down, breathe deeply, reread my post, then reread the letter in the original article.
If you are still having trouble, ask a grownup to read it to you.
btw, witty and clever remarks can only be pulled off by someone with a certain degree of intelligence, which you are obviously lacking.
RetPallyJil Sep 7th 2009 2:57PM
Awesome article art. :) Continue with the conversation.
Birdfall Sep 7th 2009 3:09PM
Good post.
It made me think of a difficult but fair decision my guild made: our worst dps won a rare best-in-slot trinket for all the melee. Giving it to that person instead of someone who would use it to its fullest potential was pretty painful.
Did her receiving the item she won fairly hurt our dps?
Yes and no.
Yes: Someone else would have used it to its fullest potential and thus increased our dps.
No: Refusing to honor a fair loot roll would lose us more dps than the first alternative through gquits.
No sensible raider is going to stay in a guild that might say "No, your dps wasn't good enough tonight, you don't get loot." It is easier to retain what you have than try and train new members.
Dave Sep 7th 2009 7:44PM
Well, if you set yourself up for a system that encourages failure, you basically have to live with what you get.
Plenty of people will stick around in a guild even if they're not top priority for loot or have an even chance for loot because they want to be part of a team. A team involves 25 or 9 other people, and usually a few subs on the bench as well and as such it can NEVER be about you, it should ALWAYS be about the guild. If you don't set your GUILD up for success by rewarding the people who are both successful AND regular raiders, you're probably going to be nothing but a pack of loot whores and when the loot stops so goes the guild. (this can be a RL situation that takes a few people away, guild drama that chases someone away or just plain hitting a wall in progression but rest assured people start to bounce when they don't get their loot if they're not team players).
So yeah, don't reward your lowest DPS with an even shot at loot. It's going to make your solid performers grumpy that new people/crappy performers get the upgrades and in my experience most of the worst (ie: the ones you can tell that don't really care) tend to be the guild hopping sort that will take your best in slot trinket and jump ship to some other guild where they can annoy all new people.
You owe it to yourself and your guild to use a loot council or rank restrictions on loot. Find the team players, upgrade your guild before upgrading the players on a player-neutral basis and you'll find success a lot easier.
Zandrae Sep 7th 2009 11:34PM
If one of your DPS is riding the fail train, why not get with them and help them not suck?
Birdfall Sep 8th 2009 12:56AM
@Dave: For hardcore raiding guilds, if you're willing to have a member in your guild and let them raid, you let them roll on loot per your rules, whether you think they deserve it or not. This is what I think the original post was about, and my story is an example of a difficult situation where I think we did the right thing.
I was not trying to debate the merits of letting a fail dps actually join our raids, nor do you have to like the way my guild does things. I do realize hardcore competitive types might consider my guild radical or even impractical, but our model has worked for two years so that we've both retained a loyal player base AND experienced steady growth. We raid regularly and complete content (which is, I think, the point of raiding?), and this is solely due to our mix of hardcore regular raiders and casual fillers, and our equal respect of both.
To tell a nice woman in a guild that isn't a hardcore raid guild that she can't raid might be "practical," but it's cruel, demeaning, and disrespectful. In a normal raid guild, I trust that she would have been denied a guild membership after her first trial run, so I won't worry that you guys will ever have the problem we had.
@Zandrae: I agree about teaching. Our guild is all about helping people improve and retaining members through friendship and guidance (often real life friends), but sometimes ... you come across someone you can't teach. And it's beyond comprehension. You try and try and try and you just can't. The lady in question was a middle-aged math teacher and several people gave her new rotations and gear lists and suggestions, but she just couldn't get her dps up. /shrug She was a great social asset and everyone liked her as a person, and our raiding is anti-cutthroat, so it was just a weird position to be in.
She did eventually leave. I wish her well.