Drama Mamas: Is it time to leave?
by Robin Torres 
Sep 11th 2009 at 7:00PM
When an elephant walks into the room, it may be time to leave. OK, I admit the above picture is a stretch for the topic at hand, but I just couldn't resist the elephant butt. The picture for the Officer with No Respect letter may also be an obscure choice, but I just felt that the Dead Bunny Police Officer depicted in that photo didn't look like he got the respect he wanted. And I could probably hold my own in a layman's debate as to whether or not Mary, Queen of Scots was a Manipulating Queen, though I doubt that I would do well against a real historian. But enough of my excuses for this week's choices from The Commons, let's get to the letters.
Officer with no respect
Dear Drama Mamas: I'm an officer in my Guild, and there are only 2 other officers in the guild. There is this one person, who gets along really well with another officer, and at least respects the GM, but when it comes to me, I get no respect... or at least very little. When I am the only officer online, this person is really annoying, He chats in guildchat about how he misses a person when he is not online all the time, or how a body part hurts, or linking all his gear when, frankly, no one cares or had even asked.These things aren't that bad, if they were not that often, but it's all the time. I say, "Don't Link your gear. If people wanted to see, they will look you up on the Armory" or "Please stop spamming in Guild Chat. The person will be back when they come back. Complaining about it doesn't make them come on any sooner." I get a "Sory Mam... I men sir" (His spelling isn't that great.) A hour or so after this, he starts back with the annoying things again. He doesn't listen to me, and the "mistake" of calling me Ma'am happens to often to be a Mistake.
Now, I could throw him on my Ignore List, but I'm an officer, and I need to see what everyone is saying, so I can deal out punishment when needed. I would demote him, but when another officer that he is very friendly with comes online, he will complain to them and get promoted again.
It has gotten rather bad, and I have thought about leaving the guild a few times over it. But I enjoy being an officer, and I have made a lot of good friends out of it. I don't want to complain to the other officer, as the other officer is his friend and I don't want to put him in the middle of it. The person is young, around 13/14, so I don't want to be mean to the guy. But sometimes he just annoys me so much that all I can do is be mean to him. Do you have any advice on what I should about this guildie, without hurting his feelings too much? Signed, Officer with No Respect
Drama Mama Robin: The only thing that Chatty Teen seems to be doing wrong is acting his age. He knows he can get a rise out of you and he's pushing your buttons every chance he gets. I don't condone this behavior; but as long as his cronies do, he's going to keep poking at you. Sure his misspellings, equipment linking and chatting are annoying. But if you don't have restrictions against that kind of thing in the guild, he really shouldn't be demoted for doing them. Of course, calling you Ma'am is not at all a mistake and he shouldn't be insulting an officer, but your nagging and his immaturity bring it on.
Personally, I can't handle the misspellings and immature behavior, which is why I don't belong to guilds that allow it. There are plenty of guilds out there that have the same tolerances you do. I don't think you should let your attachment to the officer title get in the way of finding a home with people who have better guildchat manners. Regardless of your playstyle, choose a guild that has an application to get in and that expects minimum language skills and maybe even an age restriction. If you are a good leader, you will work your way up to officer, no problem.
Drama Mama Lisa: Dear Officer With No Respect, I agree that you're not getting the respect you deserve – but it's a lack of respect from your fellow officers (not the Chatty Teen) that's the issue. There doesn't seem to be a clear concept of what sort of atmosphere the guild is aiming for and what standards of behavior should be acceptable. More to the point, though, there's no teamwork and mutual respect among the leadership team. Playing the demoting/promoting/demoting/promoting game based on personal impressions and relationships? Really?!?
I see three alternatives:
- You meet with the GM and officers as a group, set standards and enforce them as a team.
- You resign as an officer, get out of Chatty Teen's line of sight and enjoy the friendships and connections you've built in the guild.
- You leave the guild and look for one with more mature members and leaders.
(One last thing: Parents, are you looking over the shoulders of your teens when they're gaming? This is your opportunity to instill social skills and respect for others. Don't pass by these teachable moments!)
Manipulating Queen
Hi, Dear Mamas: My question concerns a raider in the guild. That raider turns out to be a girl, and it seems she is using her "charms" to get things from members of the guild. She got promoted to raider after only being in the guild for two weeks; usually, the probation is a bit more longer.Many guys in the guild love her. She is top healer, she's cute and she flirts with them. From what some officers learned, she is flirting (like proposing dates and related actions) to members, and after, she tries to use them to get what she wants: enchants, flasks, gold, promotion, more attention ... This has led one of the class leaders to quit the guild, since he could not stand a girl like that.
The officers and guild leader are unsure about what they should do. She is very good at what she does and all, but the way she acts is in my opinion unacceptable, and she denies everything when someone tries to talk to her. Oh also, something that may lead that she had a bad reputation: She had to rename her character at least two times -- in less than 6 to 8 months ... Signed, Worried Member
Drama Mama Lisa: This is a matter for your guild officers. Approach them with your concerns. They'll need to examine the facts and decide if That Girl is actually behaving in a way that is disruptive to the guild as a whole. After all, you've admitted that "many guys in the guild love her." They may conclude that some personality clashes are inevitable.
If the officers decide that That Girl's skills are an asset and her behavior isn't have a harmful impact on the guild at large, it will be up to you to take the next step. Obviously, be careful not to be seduced by her succubus charms. Avoid her when possible. But if merely having her around is putting a dampener on your spirits, you may need to start looking for a guild with a more compatible social culture and atmosphere. Remember, this is your hobby time; spend it among people you can enjoy it with!
Drama Mama Robin: I agree that taking it up with the officers is the best thing to do here. If they decide she is sticking around, there is something to think about before you jump ship. While I agree that life is too short and you should spend your leisure time as pleasurably as possible, you also need to keep in mind that there's always going to be That Player.
That Player is going to be immature, like the kid in the first letter, or flirty or abrasive or whatever. In a big enough guild, there may even be more than one. You need to decide if That Girl is a make or break personality clash for you or if you want to take a chance on getting another type of That Player if you change guilds. Of course, this phenomenon also occurs with That Coworker, That League Player and That Person in Your Extended Circle of Friends. Is her inappropriate behavior worse than the other personality types you might have to deal with if you make a move? If not, try to focus on the benefits she brings to your raid and put the rest of her on mental ignore.
Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Tips, WoW Social Conventions, Virtual selves, Features, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
micgillam Sep 11th 2009 1:56PM
If Officer chooses option 3 (as presented by Mama Lisa): "You leave the guild and look for one with more mature members and leaders.", he really should talk to his GM about why he's leaving anyway, as a courtesy at the very least. I mean, if the member in question is only misbehaving when the GM and other officers aren't on, they aren't even necessarily fully aware of what's going on. If he says to him GM: "Look, this is what's going on [...]. I'm out of patience with the situation, I like the guild a lot and I generally like the people in it, but I'm about ready to leave because I can't deal with this individual anymore.", not as an ultimatum, just as a communication of what's going on, I think it's likely that a reasonable GM who presumably made Officer an officer for good reasons in the first place will want to help find a way to fix the situation, whether it's having a stern talk with the offending member or taking things further than that is up to his/her judgement. Alternately, if the GM blows it off or responds negatively toward Officer over it, I assume it will quickly clarify that leaving is the right choice.
Dreamshadow Sep 11th 2009 2:03PM
A good thing to note for most, is that these Drama lessions are ones that will stay with you even outside of WoW. I've been at jobs where people act like this (maybe not as bad as in the first example) but still. Keep it up, Drama Mamas!
kittytrainer Sep 11th 2009 2:03PM
wow no comments yet, not even a "first" comment or anything............
kittytrainer Sep 11th 2009 2:04PM
oops i failed......
Squeaksbcod Sep 11th 2009 5:36PM
I have to say both of these complaints seems a bit petty. Unless their are strict rules on guild chat, or the guild members at large are complaining, I can't see the first letter's kid as much more than an easily ignored annoyance. So he likes to chat, so he likes to link. So what?
As for the second. Well as a female that does often have a flirty personality, this one rubs me the wrong way. If a female is being flirty or friendly or the like I do not like that mind set that it is just to get something. Sometimes it is just their personality. And if they guys in the guild fall for it. . . . well that is their problem, grow a spine and don't get lost in a pretty voice.
I also do not see anything wrong with your "top healer" being promoted to raiding quicker than most. It is because she is good and an asset.
If she wants to flirt, that is her choice, if she wants to date members of the guild, that is her choice. If she is asking for more than she deserves, and not reciprocating, than she should be treated the same way as anyone one else. . . male or female, cute or ugly, flirty or not. . . . who does the same thing. A guy could just as easily give sob stories about his mean boss/mom/friend/ex/dog, etc. and use it to manipulate into things for pity. The fact that she is a flirty female should not make her actions any more or less acceptable. Yes some women can be manipulative just like every human on earth can be.
The issue here if there even is one is being a moocher, not a cute flirty female. And if you have an issue with a moocher, than the guild should possibly look at a more structured way of helping one another that would either force her to reciprocate, or back off on taking more than giving.
And if the guild majority like her, than it would be wrong for you to demand change due to your issues with her personality. The majority don't seem to clash.
Kia Sep 12th 2009 10:03AM
Agreed. I'm a huge flirt myself--not because I want stuff, it's just who I am. It's to be expected when so many people -do- try to use their so-called charms to get gear and whatever else, but there's nothing wrong with those of us who just do it for enjoyment.
Anonymous Sep 11th 2009 7:26PM
"The person is young, around 13/14, so I don't want to be mean to the guy. But sometimes he just annoys me so much that all I can do is be mean to him."
This is the root of the problem in the first letter. Kids, especially young teens, respond really, really badly to being treated like a kid. Expecting him to be respectful on virtue of the fact that the officer is older than he is, when the officer admits that he is not respecting the kid, that's just plain not realistic. Kids aren't dumb; he surely knows the officer dislikes him, and furthermore, from a kid perspective, how annoying would it be if you were trying to hang out with your buddies and this grown-up keeps hovering over you and telling you you're being annoying? You've got to give the kid a reason to like and respect you, or else he's just going to keep rebelling from criticism that surely feels to him like nagging. This of course, means you have to have *alot* of patience though, since you sometimes will just have to turn a blind eye to his social ineptitude.
Aureliusz Sep 11th 2009 8:35PM
OK, I understand what you're saying. But from my point of view, someone shouldn't have to deal with all this. Someone shouldn't HAVE to learn exactly how to tame an unruly kid. If they want to come online and raid and socialize with a guild, it should be their job to learn how to do so without being a self-righteous loser.
When I see kids doing this, I lose all respect for them. How can I not? If they have no respect, how can I respect them at all? Even if they do get along with the other Guildies, the fact that this kid can't accept that the Officer just needs to do his/her job, get over the fact it's not all about them, says that they aren't operating in society properly yet.
I say, if they can't operate in society properly, they should leave. They are causing the problem. It shouldn't be our responsibility to fix kids like this.
I also take issue with the way you say, "from a kid perspective, how annoying would it be if you were trying to hang out with your buddies and this grown-up keeps hovering over you and telling you you're being annoying?" What? It's written there that when another officer is present, the kid cuts the crap. He can hang out with his buddies without being a tosser. Again, he does, when another officer is present. The kid is singling out this particular officer. It's this simple - he's stirring.
Soteria Sep 12th 2009 4:49AM
Although I agree in general that respect should go both ways, I do not agree that the kid here deserves respect regardless of his behavior. Saying things like "yes ma'am" is obviously intended to be insulting, and at this point we've moved beyond annoying immature behavior.
I, too, wonder what sort of standards of behavior for chat the guild has. For mine, I can't even think if we have specific rules about what you can say in chat, we just expect a general level of maturity. As an officer, if I ever had to rebuke someone's behavior in chat, and they responded sarcastically like that, I can pretty much guarantee you that person's status as a raider and probably a member of the guild would be in jeopardy as soon as the GM logged in. This kid has learned not to respect the officer's authority because he's learned that the officers words have no force behind them.
Sarabande Sep 12th 2009 10:10AM
The sad part about this is, there are a lot of kids who are mature
(or really try to be) and try to earn the respect, but kids with
"we're just kids - we shouldn't have to know how to behave . . .. "
etc, hurt the kids who are respectful.
I've read both sides often, and it's ideas like that, which make quite a
few guilds have age limits. And yet, when confronted with age
limits, kids often say "but you can't assume kids are immature."
While they are right - you can't assume that - people have only so
much patience for the "look at me" (shown by repeated linking of all
of their gear and endless chatter), disrespect (shown by using
"ma'am" to a guy) and immaturity (which, admittedly, knows no age
limits). When you see that over and over again (or just confronted
with it on a regular basis by one kid) you start to think maybe age
limits aren't a bad idea.
And by the way, I have always thougtht that a game like this is a
great tool to teach manners and socialization. Unfortunately, I
imagine that many parents have no clue what kind of game their kids are playing, and
in fact, don't consider that the people their kid is playing with are
REAL PEOPLE.
el ranchero Sep 15th 2009 10:43AM
@Anon: I agree with the others. The guild officers are the decision makers for the guild as a whole, and their ability to function as such requires the respect and trust of the guild members. A guildie that openly disrespects a guild officer undermines her status and legitimacy among the other guild members, and therefore her ability to do her job.
I'm not saying guilds should be militaristic in their discipline, but guildies know when one officer's decisions (e.g., demoting/promoting) can be easily reversed and stop taking them seriously.
BubblePriest Sep 11th 2009 7:31PM
Is the flirty girl merely taking advantage of overly naive guys? If so, then while not commendable on her part it is partially the fault of the guys being taken advantage of as well. Perhaps it will teach them some life lessons about women (here's hoping).
I tend to avoid these types of women, however, because I have discovered they can be very hostile to other women. I had a girl like this emotionally /gquit a guild I was an officer in after she discovered I was female (apparently my female toon wasn't a clue). If she is being hostile to other women in your guild, or causing drama by playing her love smitten Romeos off of one another, then that is a problem the guild needs to address.
theRaptor Sep 11th 2009 10:46PM
And when you get mugged in the street it will be partially your fault for walking around looking like an easy mark. Also women shouldn't go around dressing so slutty if they don't want to be raped /roll eyes.
Taking advantage of peoples vulnerabilities is wrong and always the full fault of the exploiter. There is absolutely no justification for putting blame on the victims. People do not act rationally when sex is involved, and biology overrides intellect when it comes to reciprocating trust and respect. Guys falling all over themselves for a flirty girl is exactly what you expect, it is not the exception.
Conmen/women don't get away with it by picking on stupid people, they exploit the biology of Oxytocin mediated bonding.
I wouldn't fall for it because I had enough bad experiences in my life that I am suspicious of most peoples motives. I don't think everyone should have to be so cynical because of the few bad apples.
Najwah Sep 11th 2009 11:24PM
@TheRaptor
Did you really just compare naive guys who give a flirty girl some virtual gold to rape survivors? Awesome.
Note for people who don't understand internet sarcasm: not actually awesome.
theRaptor Sep 12th 2009 12:03AM
@Najwah
No I compared two situations which commonly illicit victim blaming responses by onlookers. The rape example is so common that it is used as an example in my psych text. I was using such extreme examples to make my point. It is never okay to blame the victim for being taken advantage of.
And would you actually read my damn post? This has nothing to do with naivety. Your biology makes your reciprocate trust and affection to people who show it to you. You have to have had bad life experiences or a defective Oxytocin circuit to not do so. I don't think it is fair to expect people to act as if everyone is trying to screw them over.
Najwah Sep 12th 2009 12:12AM
@TheRaptor
I read your post, but that doesn't force me to accept your premise. I assume (perhaps wrongly, I may be giving too much credit to textbook authors) that your psych text is more sensitive and/or intellectually rigorous in its use of the rape example. You are, you say, "using extreme examples to make a point." To use another phrasing, you are being deliberately provocative. When you say something that you should be aware can have deep emotional resonance, you should be more sensitive to the effect it might have. Rape shouldn't be taken so lightly.
QQinsider Sep 12th 2009 12:38AM
"It is never okay to blame the victim for being taken advantage of."
What an utterly stupid blanket statement. About as stupid as your comparison to rape.
I have about as much sympathy for people getting ripped off by flirty women in WoW as I would for someone who got their Ferrari stolen after leaving it unlocked in a bad neighbourhood. Try telling the police, or your insurance company, that you were completely blameless for that.
People are not mindless animals blindly following biological instincts. They have a brain that is capable of rational thought, and if they choose not to use that to be responsible for themselves then that's their problem. Lucky for them if they learn their lesson in a harmless virtual world, rather than more painfully in the real one.
halophoenix Sep 11th 2009 8:54PM
It's very easy to write off the annoying person in the first question as just an annoyance and not worth time or energy...until you have one in your guild. Trust me - I do. I'm not an officer, I'm just one of those people who has to suffer when they're on talking to themselves or the sycophants that they've managed to squirrel into the guild during recruitment seasons - always linking their gear to make sure everyone knows that they're wearing phat epixx and blathering on about the PUGs they run on when they do nothing to help the guild or their guildmates in any way, shape, or form. Argh. I could go on.
In the end though, the mamas are right - if there's just no enforcable rules about maturity in the writer's guild, then this kind of thing is bound to go unpunished. If they did have an atmosphere or maturity, then the writer as an officer or his/her's fellow officers would have room to punish that person for their immaturity. That being said though, any action now will just be perceived as a witch hunt, and even if the rules were in place the offender would probably just whine, complain, and pick up their ball and leave the guild. Which, after all, may be the desired effect!
Voodie Sep 11th 2009 9:29PM
In my opinion, both of these letters boil down to the officers of each guild needing to clarify the behavioral expectations of members and then enforce them when necessary. If a member is causing enough of an issue to be brought up for formal discussion more than once, it's time to do something. When a member disrespects an officer it's imperative to make it clear immediately that such behavior is unacceptable, regardless of his age.
If this kid is going to pop off over and over, demote him for 15 min to a rank that can't talk in guild chat and tell him in a tell that he has been given a warning, a 15 min time-out, and that if he keeps disobeying he'll be brought up to the other officers for disciplinary consideration. The one guy he's friends with isn't going to be able to save him if you take it to all the officers and they decide he needs to be dealt with formally.
As far as officers not backing each other up, that's a huge issue and needs to be addressed more urgently than the kid linking his gear. That sort of thing will lead to bigger problems in the long run than the flirt or the kid will.
The flirt sounds like she is disrupting the guild. The flirting may be an issue down the road but frankly, that's her personality and while you can do something about behaviors it's not likely you can have any long term affects on personality though guild policies. Right now though, it's her solicitation of goods and services sounds like the bigger issue. I'd say talk to her one last time, let her know it's the last time it's going to be discussed with her. If she doesn't stop soliciting members then she needs to get the boot. Just because she is a good healer doesn't mean she should be able to disrupt your guild or avoid policy that would apply to any other member.
Cathubodva Sep 12th 2009 2:47AM
With regard to letter 2. There is nothing worse than the female or G.I.R.L. who flings the e-cooch around in an effort to make sure she's the center of attention or getting what she wants with little to no contribution to the guild outside of her ability to heal a raid. There is more to being a good guildie than being top DPS, Tank or Healer.
If the guild is built around the idea that its a platform for people to meet other people and get their hookup on, then great. Time to move on! Either it's a guild or it's the WoW version of eHarmony.