Patch 5.2 interview with Dave Kosak
Inside an old alt's vault
The latest patch 5.2 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: I miss trash
by Matthew Rossi 
Sep 18th 2009 at 8:00AM
In fact, what the trashless boss gauntlet that is Trial of the Crusader/Grand Crusader has done for me is to show me that I've been missing trash, real trash, since after we moved out of Mount Hyjal, and even then it was in slow decline. No, I hate to admit it, but in a blazing moment of honest to Murgatroyd old fogeyism, I came to realize that what I miss was the brutal, punishing trash pulls in Blackwing Lair. Blackwing Spellbinders were harder to deal with than some of the bosses that followed them! You could wipe multiple times before you even had the room cleared enough to pull a drake!
Yeah, it sounds ridiculous that I'm nostalgic for that. And to be honest, it's a nostalgia tinged with a certain amount of relief that I don't have to go clear it again any time soon (and if I did, well, I'm level 80 now). But what I miss, and what I feel like we've been moving away from since Hyjal (which may have taken trash pulls to a height so ridiculous that the pendulum had to swing back this way) is trash with personality. Trash that sets the story, that makes you really feel like you're actually raiding an ancient lair of evil. That being said, I'm glad TotC is trashless. Just please, let Icecrown bring back trash that counts.
How about you? Never want to see it again? Looking forward to its return? Where do you stand on trash?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Breakfast Topics, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 6)
Dart Sep 18th 2009 9:12AM
Make it so # of encounters or time it took reduces the amount of trash.
So progression is slower, and farm is faster.
CapnSkillet Sep 18th 2009 8:20AM
I only started playing in BC and never raided a lot, but I remember our groups having to do multiple crowd control in order to survive pulls even in 5 mans. Maybe we just sucked lol but sometimes I do miss having to chain ice trap on my hunter and other times I'm grateful to just sit back and pewpew.
Rob Sep 18th 2009 8:48AM
I think chain traps by def. means you dont suck. In BC heroics you pretty much have to do CC or offtanking. Nowadays its 'omg the tank/healer suck'. I've had some challenges in hTOC where the healing or my tanking skill just wasnt enough to compensate for the absolute lack of skill from the dps.
If anything drives me out of this game it would be that skill keeps getting nerfed and overgearing is the solution to everything.
For example Grand widow in Naxx. You know how its supposed to be done, right? Drag a add to her and kill it when she's pissed? No, it's separate adds, do her last, heal through the enrages (ZOMG YOU HEALZ LTP....).
Next example, Logan in hHOL. Stack on the tank, run away when he explodes. Not that hard. Nope, can't do it, heal through it. ZOMG HEALZ....
I'm sorry my skill and gear isnt enough to drag your ass through whatever content you think you can faceroll through.
bushkanaka86 Sep 18th 2009 9:55AM
Agreed. I REALLY miss the days of CC. Yes, even the 1 mess up and you wipe CC. It puts more pressure on the dps to play well and not max out their dps meter.
I remember the first times going in to ZG at 60 and there were like 7 mobs in that first pull. Every one of them got an icon and we had to CC 6 of the 7 mobs. Granted, my raid wasn't that skilled or high leveled at the time and I am sure top guilds just destroyed them at the same time, but still. We had a couple sheeps, a couple druid sleeps, maybe a chain fear or a hunter chain trap. It was good fun and it weeded out the good and the bad dps.
Anyone remember when a Priest Shackle was useful? There is so much potential for that in Naxx but no need for it. /sigh
uncaringbear Sep 18th 2009 10:01AM
CC was fun and it was a test of the group's abilities to coordinate and work together. In particular, it was additional responsibility for the DPS to contribute to the success of the group. What do DPS do these days? Avoid standing in fire and staying away from whirlwind, all the while relying on your overgeared tank and healer to carry the group through.
Hoho Sep 18th 2009 8:21AM
Pre-nerf Ignis trash was fun. XT not so much when they had both sides linked together.
Abby Sep 18th 2009 9:08AM
The problem with the no-trash situation, to me, is that you can run something and not get *anything* for your trouble. If the bosses don't drop an upgrade for you, you're not looking for emblems or faction hits, and you don't get any enchanting mats, you only walk away with the repair bill. I used to hit a vendor right away and see if I could cover my repair costs just by selling grey trash loot, but those worthless greens and random tradeskill mats DID add up.
Ellemir Sep 18th 2009 8:27AM
I miss the trash from Karazhan!
cmichaelcooper Sep 18th 2009 8:42AM
I agree with you SO much.
Aarkan Sep 18th 2009 9:43AM
Kara had the best trash ever. Great variety and I really enjoyed the flavor. Magister's Terrace is up there as well. I hope Icecrown will have us fighting all different kinds of undead all over and Death Knights and lots of army of the dead.... It just needs to be like we're descending into hell.
traptinacivicsi Sep 18th 2009 9:57AM
Well.... Looks like Hell DID freeze over.
Jenn Sep 18th 2009 10:00AM
As soon as I read the opening title of this post, my thoughts echoed what you wrote. Kara was my first raiding experience and the first time I went in there, despite being nervous (yeah, really), the place felt very magical to me... and that was due in part to the trash pulls. The room before Moroes and the Opera House just felt so right I guess.
Ulduar was beautiful... I went through it a few time after after clearing and some of the little details are gorgeous. But the place felt very empty when all the bosses and "trash" were up.
Gimmlette Sep 18th 2009 10:20AM
^This. Kara trash seemed to have a reason for being where it was. All those people in the the ballrooms for instance or around Moroes seemed to be there, trapped by time. Horses in the stable, the audience and theatre workers in the opera, the mobs in the various library rooms. That's what trash should be. Shattered Halls was trash for the sake of trash, not because it fit the instance. I'd lump Shadow Labs in that category, too. Old Kingdom, shudder. Oculus, I don't mind as the trash seems to fit where it's encountered.
There needs to be a balance between trash to make the encounter worth something and not too much so it's Another trash pull. Coilfang Reservoir, anyone? Who needs their Kara key frag?
Eshin Sep 18th 2009 10:44AM
Kara was a PERFECT example of well done trash. Some CC needed in some spots, only PewPew in others. It allowed the DPS to go all out in some spots to pad their meters but called them back from it in others. I just miss the epic and creepy feeling of the place.
Joey Sep 18th 2009 12:12PM
@ Gimmlette
You nailed it perfectly. Trash that has a purpose really adds a lot of flavor to an instance. Conversely, trash that hangs out in hallways or rooms standing in evenly spaced intervals just ruins an instance for me. Really, the other 15 guards in the room didn't notice a motley crew of adventurers with big flashy spells, battle shouts and diseases blowing everything up just a few yards away? Certainly there's some suspension of disbelief going on here but even that has limits.
Allison Robert Sep 18th 2009 12:42PM
I miss Kara, but Kara trash was only fun if you were (or had) a pally tank. If you were a Warrior or a Druid tank -- particularly when all undead mobs were immune to bleeds, which was a nightmare for ferals -- Kara trash was an endless suckfest.
Bel Sep 18th 2009 2:13PM
I always loved the few pulls on the way into the Opera: the tall skeletons with big swords and purple capes.
"Okay, guys, we have to cc one of these two, the other one is going to freeze the main tank, so don't be second on the threat list unless you're the offtank. They're not tauntable and they hit like a truck, so you WILL die."
I don't know what you're talking about with the pally tanks... my warrior was almost always maintank and if our druid ot didn't make it we used another warrior. I never had or heard any complaints about bleed damage. Threat just mattered in those days.
Agerath Sep 18th 2009 5:25PM
Allison: I tanked most of BC content with my druid, alongside our guild MT, a warrior.
We never had any problems in Kara. Don't know what you're talking about :)
Baptista Sep 18th 2009 8:29AM
I haven't played in a while but i've been reading the blogs on WoW.com and this morning waking up finding such and interesting topic I decided that i must comment. Why? Well for the fact that i've really never heard someone other than me THAT miss trash.
I've raided all content since TBC-Wrath except for ToC which just came out, had to quite playing due to RL issues, but i must say i miss trash that had to to actually make you think. Not in the sense that they were like Raid bosses in and of themselves but you had to actually have a plan other than "Round them up and AoE". I like going into a dungeaon and felling like i'm actually in a dudes Lair and about to beat the crap out of him and get cool loot. I raid for the whole experience not just to kill the Biggest Pinata that means the trash and the boss, cause i mean isn't that what its about?
But hey thats my 2 cents
Nefaria Sep 18th 2009 8:34AM
Been playing since release. I'm torn about the issue of having to clear trash to get to the bosses (due to my much more casual nature than when I began). However, some instances with memorable trash that will always stick with me were UBRS, BWL, Karazhan and BT. Mainly though, I have less than desirable memories of trash. Having 40 people having to melee a Lava Surger is in fact NOT fun. My god was that a long time ago >.