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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: I miss trash
by Matthew Rossi 
Sep 18th 2009 at 8:00AM
In fact, what the trashless boss gauntlet that is Trial of the Crusader/Grand Crusader has done for me is to show me that I've been missing trash, real trash, since after we moved out of Mount Hyjal, and even then it was in slow decline. No, I hate to admit it, but in a blazing moment of honest to Murgatroyd old fogeyism, I came to realize that what I miss was the brutal, punishing trash pulls in Blackwing Lair. Blackwing Spellbinders were harder to deal with than some of the bosses that followed them! You could wipe multiple times before you even had the room cleared enough to pull a drake!
Yeah, it sounds ridiculous that I'm nostalgic for that. And to be honest, it's a nostalgia tinged with a certain amount of relief that I don't have to go clear it again any time soon (and if I did, well, I'm level 80 now). But what I miss, and what I feel like we've been moving away from since Hyjal (which may have taken trash pulls to a height so ridiculous that the pendulum had to swing back this way) is trash with personality. Trash that sets the story, that makes you really feel like you're actually raiding an ancient lair of evil. That being said, I'm glad TotC is trashless. Just please, let Icecrown bring back trash that counts.
How about you? Never want to see it again? Looking forward to its return? Where do you stand on trash?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Breakfast Topics, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Skarlette Sep 18th 2009 2:31PM
Oh yeah, the old /y GROUP HUG!!!! macro... Good times.
Kia Sep 18th 2009 8:34AM
Agreed, I like trash. When I raid a dungeon I want it to feel like I'm actually entering some den of evil. The occasional trashless or almost trashless place is fine, like Ony, but in general...As long as it's not over the top, yes plz.
DeathPaladin Sep 18th 2009 8:42AM
I did not play during Vanilla, but I have a few guildmates who did. Based on the stories I've heard from them, I am glad that Vanilla trash is a thing of the past.
It's not to say that trash mobs do not have their place, but Vanilla trash was back in the day when intentionally cockblocking raiders was the standard for MMOs.
noobdeluxe Sep 18th 2009 8:54AM
The trash before general Vezax (pre-nerfs) was quite a challenge tho
noobdeluxe Sep 18th 2009 8:55AM
They made hard trash into a ''boss'' now btw , Faction Champs
cmichaelcooper Sep 18th 2009 8:55AM
I miss trash as well, but the key to effective trash is an environment that helps to make them interesting. For example, the groups of mobs that could punt you off the ledge down into the whelps in UBRS. Those pulls weren't difficult because the mobs were difficult, but you had to keep your wits about you. Losing a player in that circumstance is more detrimental to that particular player than the entire raid, unless it's a tank or healer of course.
I think this is a part of a larger discussion about how easy it is to get epic loot. Everyone just wants to run in, kill bosses and get loot. But we all appreciate that loot a lot more if we have to earn it, and trash pulls are part of that process.
Raids should not be reduced to a boss/loot vending machine.
WoWie Zowie Sep 18th 2009 8:56AM
well there was a lot of trash in kara but i didnt mind it. it added to the atmosphere and wasnt completely obtrusive. also they rewarded you by giving you a reputation gain. naxx trash was a boring time waster but kara trash was cool.
Josin Sep 18th 2009 8:58AM
I miss trash that requires thought before pulling. Most of Naxx and Ulduar is just run in and AoE the bejeezus out of things.
More pulls like the Vezax trash, IMO. It's amazing watching people who haven't had to use their brains since BC suddenly go "Okay, wait a minute..."
Jade Sep 18th 2009 8:59AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1SiSUrvUnk
cmichaelcooper Sep 18th 2009 9:00AM
Well played.
Josin Sep 18th 2009 9:17AM
+10 internets to you, sir.
Jon Do Sep 18th 2009 9:05AM
For me, the issue in the ToC instance / raid design isn't so much the 'lack of trash', but that the cool 'Ring of Law' design (and the Ring of Blood 'twist' was one of the great encounters of TBC that nearly everyone seemed to enjoy) has become a tired retread -- mainly because ToC has brought many more versions of the same idea without any innovation at all. (Except the jousting in the 5-man most people could do without -- joust, then run out/reset points out a poor design.)
It needed a new twist to be fresh, but as it is, it just falls flat.
It feels more like the 3.2 raid needed to be fast to put 3.3 and Cataclysm back on schedule, so they passed up trash and instance design and instead strung together some scripted boss fights. After the epic-ness of Ulduar, I was disappointed.
Hal Sep 18th 2009 9:11AM
To be fair, I never run out; I try to get the bosses under control or die trying. I always like the surprise people feel when they realize that a competent tank can pick them up (and even then, an incompetent tank just needs DPS to try to survive).
I'm not a big fan of long, long waves of trash packs, but I do like mini-bosses (such as the keepers with Freya). I think they give an appropriate feel, with appropriate rewards, without being more of the same.
Trent Sep 18th 2009 10:10AM
I'm sorry, but I don't see any substance in your critique. What about it is a retread? Other than the idea of arena combat and the stringed bosses, it bears no resemblence to previous arena events whatsoever. And do you even consider the enemies in Ring of Blood bosses? They were just elites that you could bring as many people as you wanted in to kill (and a few who just showed up to get to their turn). Hardly a worthy encounter.
And Jon, considering Ulduar and Icecrown are both epic-sized raids, what exactly did you expect to come in between? A long, drawn out raid in the hunt for T9 would almost assuredly result in Icecrown being completely ignored by most casual guilds because they would be mired in previous content. The Job of Crusader's Coliseum was very simple: prepare raiders for Icecrown. I think it accomplished that goal.
Now, lore-wise, absolutely the Argent Tournament is a bust. It makes little sense and only serves to pull the player out of the lore experience. But structurally, it has served its purpose quite nicely and I find the Tribute runs an inspired move.
PodPeople Sep 18th 2009 12:19PM
Hal,
While yes, it is possible to collect all 3 of the horde/alliance mobs in the first fight after the jousting. my recent experience has been that it's bugged, as soon as you start to fight the 3rd one you all get auto-dismounted while it's still on its mount and doing crazy insane dmg and people get 1-2 shotted, and it can't be taunted. not to mention there's the issue for tanks that the mobs retain their aggro from the jousting, so whomever charges them the most get's attacked first. and then there's the semi randomness of where they all get dismounted at, which can be controlled, but hardly anyone seems to have figured that out, at least in PuGs.
is it really that hard to have it so once they have all been dismounted they walk over to the gate and from-up, while your group has a chance to form-up? that way your healer or a clothy isn't just insta-gibbed by all three before they even have a chance to swap weapons.
Jon Do Sep 18th 2009 1:58PM
@Trent
“I'm sorry, but I don't see any substance in your critique. What about it is a retread? Other than the idea of arena combat and the stringed bosses...”
That was my point.
And for us, when it went out in guild chat that someone needed Ring of Blood it was like the invitation to an impromptu party - we had a blast with it.
---
@PodPeople
I’ve had the same experience.
It was an interesting concept spoiled by the realities of aggro tables, the idiosyncrasies of mounted combat, and bugs.
Delphenus Sep 18th 2009 9:05AM
I like trash like the zombies in Culling of Stratholme; the kind of trash you can one shot with any ability or attack, especially with attacks that chain through multiple targets. Makes me feel really epic to run through hordes of zombies burning them all.
But yes, Karazhan trash was great. Interesting enough to separate them from regular pulls, but not mind-crushingly difficult to deal with if a loose CC goes awry like in Tempest Keep.
bigjonno Sep 18th 2009 9:06AM
It's not the trash in itself, but the whole sense of adventure that comes from a well-constructed dungeon. I've been on some boost runs in Blackrock recently and struck me how much I miss that kind of content. The feel of exploring a real place with inhabitants that do something other than wait around to be killed. It brought back fond memories of pen 'n' paper RPG dungeon crawling, which is exactly the kind of vibe I want from MMO instances. Of all my raiding experiences, I think I enjoyed Karazhan the most for this exact reason. Ulduar and TotCr are dull by comparison as they are literally places filled with mobs that are just waiting for you to turn up and fight them.
I know some people are just in it for the epics, but maybe some way of guaranteeing an epic drop between each boss would help on that front.
Miri Sep 18th 2009 9:09AM
I really miss the TK and SSC trash--it really made the raid work together as a team because everyone played a specific role for the group. It was probably one of the last known times that hunters had to know how to chain trap and control a mob for an extended period of time (TK). SSC trash was a blast--once people got past that first boss, the elevator.
I still have memories of someone asking me where my pet was going in SSC...turns out that while we were killing, the MT started marking the next pull...this was a problem because he usually stuck a skull on whatever mob we should be focusing on...I targeted the skull mob, and sent my pet after them...too bad it was the next pack of murlocs in Tidewalker's room...I think on my pet and I died, the raid got a laugh, and the MT was forbidden from marking the next set of mobs before we were done with the current set.
Trash that was a beat it or die situation added to the challenge...I miss the choreography of a good trash pull...
Meegaal Sep 18th 2009 9:21AM
I miss some of the more intricate trash pulls from BWL or BT, or even HMgT. What I don't miss is the endless trash of MC. I'd like to see the final raid instance of Wrath have some kind of trash pulls that require thought and a degree of skill and knowledge of your class involved in killing them. Knowing your class expands beyond knowing your DPS rotations. I've played a mage since vanilla with the exception of BC where I played a prot warrior, but anyway I've seen mages and hunters that can't kite Gluth adds. I mean really? CCing is pretty much a dead art at this point in the game so seeing that brought back as a necessity in a raid would be nice and give the classes that can a little more value in a raid besides just being another DPS.