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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: I miss trash
by Matthew Rossi 
Sep 18th 2009 at 8:00AM
In fact, what the trashless boss gauntlet that is Trial of the Crusader/Grand Crusader has done for me is to show me that I've been missing trash, real trash, since after we moved out of Mount Hyjal, and even then it was in slow decline. No, I hate to admit it, but in a blazing moment of honest to Murgatroyd old fogeyism, I came to realize that what I miss was the brutal, punishing trash pulls in Blackwing Lair. Blackwing Spellbinders were harder to deal with than some of the bosses that followed them! You could wipe multiple times before you even had the room cleared enough to pull a drake!
Yeah, it sounds ridiculous that I'm nostalgic for that. And to be honest, it's a nostalgia tinged with a certain amount of relief that I don't have to go clear it again any time soon (and if I did, well, I'm level 80 now). But what I miss, and what I feel like we've been moving away from since Hyjal (which may have taken trash pulls to a height so ridiculous that the pendulum had to swing back this way) is trash with personality. Trash that sets the story, that makes you really feel like you're actually raiding an ancient lair of evil. That being said, I'm glad TotC is trashless. Just please, let Icecrown bring back trash that counts.
How about you? Never want to see it again? Looking forward to its return? Where do you stand on trash?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Breakfast Topics, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
George McBain Sep 18th 2009 9:39AM
I am missing some of the tactics that used to go along with the trash in Vanilla and TBC. I recently hit 80 on my priest and have played through Zul'Drak instances, but there hasn't been any strategy on trash besides "just go!". Perhaps that will change when I hit heroics or raids?
I remember with my hunter in TBC having to coordinate Karazhan, Magister's Terrace, Heroic pulls with my traps AND another players CC. I found that to be very rewarding, as long as people knew what they were doing ;)
Miri Sep 18th 2009 9:54AM
It won't change going into Heroics...unfortunately. :(
There is no need for coordination anymore....as long as the healers can spam heals, the tanks can pick up multiple mobs, and the group has AOE, you're set.
There's no need to "know" how to play your class anymore. For all the instances I've run with mages, not one has ever spell-stealed in UK or Nexus..sheeping isn't done any more...hunters don't trap, rogues don't sap, etc.
The comments from Blizzard is they don't want to make all the tanks/dps/healers the same, but in a way it's happening. As long as you can somewhat deduce what attacks you should be using on a mob, you can play any class. There is no intricacies to learn about your class anymore...no class specific quests, nada.
It's sorta depressing for me...that's why I like to go back and run the old instances for grins--MagT still brings back memories every time...those pulls required coordination and skill!
Magnuskn Sep 18th 2009 9:40AM
I hope trash stays gone. Time is a premium and trash does nothing but delay the really hard parts of the raid.
Trent Sep 18th 2009 9:43AM
Nostalgia is just that - nostalgia. Human memory is such that it often filters out the bad and amplifies the good. They only crave a return to the old way of doing things because they've forgotten just how much they hated the old ways. They only remember the accomplishment of defeating Nefarian for the first time. They forget, on the other hand, the dozens of hours of frustration beforehand. The finger-pointing after a wipe, the 39 people screwed over because a single person made a mistake. The dozens of friends who canceled their accounts because they realized life was just too short, and bringing the frustrations of those raids into your real life.
I'm sorry, but I cannot view the past with rose-colored glasses. Those old raids caused me to cancel my account dozens of times because I just couldn't take it any more, and the only thing that caused me to come back was the knowledge that Blizzard was trying to make it better. I'll always cherish my memories of raiding back in the day, in the same way I'll cherish the memories I've had in recent raids. The difference is, those memories don't come with the same price tag. Try to remember that folks before you call for a return to the old ways. WoW is better now than it was then, and it'll be better later than it is now. It's called progress.
Meegaal Sep 18th 2009 10:05AM
I wouldn't go as far as to call WoW a better game than it was, it's definitely easier. The bar has been lowered to cater to a caliber of players now that barely need to know anything outside of a 123 rotation regardless of role as far as PvE is concerned. Raiding is all about knowing the proper 'dance' moves and avoiding AoE damage. It's understandable though for Blizzard to cater to the majority of the player base where the par is lower and those that excel at what they do truly show it. Everyone is so over geared for the content they're progressing through it's disgusting.
Trent Sep 18th 2009 10:39AM
What you call easier I call more balanced. I'm sorry, but a game is broken when an instance sits for months completely untouched because the trash obliterates even the most coordinated raid groups. That's not a difficulty issue; that's a balancing issue.
Blizzard got it right when they started adding tiers of difficulty to instances. A raid instance is made to be enjoyed, not to frustrate and befuddle all who enter. Everyone should have a chance to defeat Yogg-Saron, but only a select few should be able to get Alone in the Darkness. At least people have that choice now, instead of being taunted by impossible to defeat mobs.
Chamual Sep 18th 2009 4:31PM
@Trent
What's wrong with a game being hard? Are games basically films now, you pay your money so you are entitled to see the story through to the end? Games are meant to be a challenge, that's why they are games not films, books or TV shows. Sure you can tell a story through a game but it is still meant to be difficult, thats the point. Is it fun playing chess against someone that doesn't have a clue? Or command & conquer or quake against someone you are so much better than it's untrue?
I remember BBC games that I never saw more than the 4th screen of, racing games I never finished a lap of.
WoW was created for gamers at first. Sure, gamers with a lot of time, but gamers still, those who were willing to suffer the wipes and tears and frustrations or playing the game, because the reward was so good when it arrived. Now the rewards are thrown at you by the bucket load, you barely have to step out of Dalaran and sneeze to be rewarded with some kind of badge, token, reputation or monetary reward. Everything happens so easily and quickly now, and they are even changing old Azeroth to get with the new program, no more will you have to travel across two continents and back again via foot, flightpoint and several ships just to complete a puny quest for 2g. Now fountains of gold are never more than a stones throw away, simply fly 30 yards from the quest giver, kill 10 of the most mindless,easy badies ever in a computer game and return for your 13g and 1 badge.
visitingl337n00b Sep 18th 2009 9:56AM
It's weird for me to read people saying they miss raids with an epic feel. Ulduar is amazingly designed. It's great looking in all it's environments, has probably the best story of any raid dungeon yet, and if you went in the first week then you met trash that could seriously wipe your raid (I'm not talking about the accidentally linked packs before XT, that was clearly just a mistake).
Furthermore, I don't think complaining about people overgearing trash makes any sense. This has always happened. Did you ever do Scholo with people in BWL gear? Of course if your gear goes up a few tiers then old content seems easy. That being said, trash is certainly a lot easier these days than it used to be, and I did prefer the pre-nerf Ulduar trash (though cutting Vezax's humanoid groups from four to three is good with me).
Remember that only the top guilds did BWL or AQ40. Only a very few elite did orginal Naxx. If you think things have gotten too easymode, do firefighter, yogg+0 and algalon. If you can't do these things or you can't find a guild to do them with you, then you are in the same situation as the players who never got to do original Naxx.
Sannald Sep 18th 2009 10:04AM
Oh yes let's bring back ALL that trash from the good old days. Trash like "One-Shot the Robot" that decided to randomly own people on the way to the Council in BT.
Or let's bring back those Murloc Packs leading to Tidewalker in SSC. It was great having them all clip together and trying to mark the kill order. Even more fun was having to spam sheep on the warriors so they wouldn't enrage and run off toward a healer. = /
How about the trash leading right up to Kael's room? It had the great mob which started to constantly whirlwind and throw out arcane bolts. I remember having to throw out sheep multiple times because some melee decided that sheeps r fun to hit.
How about Hyjal? Maybe Icecrown can have waves of trash that come at you and if you happen to wipe on the boss you get to do the waves all. over. again. Sign me up!
/sarcasm off
Some trash is good, and it does add flavor to the instance. Too much trash though is just soul-crushing. I happen to think that Ulduar got it right with regard to the amount of trash.
CapnSkillet Sep 18th 2009 10:21AM
True! I don't know how many times I've tanked heroics on my paladin and been the only one left alive and still killed the trash (or even a boss). Usually it was while carrying people through who pulled extra mobs or started shooting mobs other than the skull before they reached my consecrate.
nowdk Sep 18th 2009 1:00PM
I hope blizzard keeps the "Keep it simple" philosophy.
I am not sure what many people here mean when they say the bad players need to be weeded out. Why? This is a game. They pay jsut as much as the others and they have signed up to have the same fun. Make the boss fights competative, so they atleast get a glimpse of it. That way they get to see content and can atleast try make changes to play better.
I have had worst experiance wiping on trash and raids being called off. Please lets not make it like that. One of the best things right now is atleast every week I get to raid. Previously in BC if you were not a dedicated raider there was no hope and u would never get to see content.
Keep the trash to minimum, make interesting boss fights.
Trent Sep 18th 2009 10:45AM
In WotLK raids were made more accessible, and were tiered so that the difficult content was available without completely excluding those just not capable of defeating it. One of the side effects of that has been easier trash, because PUG raiders face the same trash in Ulduar that pro raiders going for Alone in the Darkness do.
That should change in Icecrown with Heroic raids. Now, trash mobs in the Heroic version can be specifically tuned to challenge even the most seasoned raiders, because there doesn't need to be a consideration for casuals. So there needs not be lamenting the death of difficult trash. Just wait until 3.3.
Melchior Sep 18th 2009 10:49AM
I didn't mind in in Classic WoW... I remember doing my first MC being amazed by how awesome the pulls were- 'Oh mah gawd two Giants at once! " at the time I didn't know they were considered "trash"... In BC not so much... clearing 10-20 minutes of trash between bossfights was exhausting... especially week after week. I did enjoy Gruul and MagT because the focus shifted to the actual boss fights/mechanics, not 'clearing trash' so I could actually enjoy the game- Clearing trash just doesn't feel quite as 'epic' as it should. Now... I hate trash, I find it the most uninteresting and mind numbing aspect currently in the game. 'P.S. Mounted combat SUCKS- Please die.'
Gungehammer Sep 18th 2009 10:51AM
Yeah, hey, let's have some trash like Deadmines ... where you had to fight your way through an entire cave of over-aggroing normals just to get to the instance. I've been running around some old world instances lately and that happens a lot. You felt you'd acheived somthing just getting to the portal, but please don't bring this back!
Marcblack Sep 18th 2009 11:13AM
Whatever, just dont bring 40 man raids back.
The more ppl in a raid, the more frustrating it is.
George Sep 18th 2009 11:25AM
Well, if you miss even on trash, you should start stacking hit rating.
Gear properly, mmmkay?
/thanks, I'll be here all week. Try the veal!
Narayana Sep 18th 2009 11:34AM
Trash requires delicate balance. On the one hand, you have MC-like trash that does little to the instance but slow it down. On the other, you have BWL trash which truly added a nice element to the place.
I think that trash should be like an over-arching boss fight for the entire instance. No one pack should be significantly more difficult than all of the others. Nor should a raid be required to face the same damned thing over and over. instead, trash should progress like a multi-phased fight. Each type of trash should introduce various elements that you must master in different combinations in order to proceed.
blinkett Sep 18th 2009 11:49AM
I don't miss trash. Not one bit. Fun to me is not tons of worthless mobs standing before me and a boss fight. ToC is fun to me BECAUSE of the lack of trash. All boss and hard modes no wasted time with re-spawns.
Shamman22 Sep 18th 2009 11:55AM
Very much in agreement with this article. As someone that has tanked on every tanking class, I must agree that I HATE the northrend dungeons. All linear, all mobs easily aoe'd down, no thought, no strategy. In my experience it's making players dumber and before you flame me, let me give you a few real expamples:
1. Tanking brd with a group of all mid to high 50's recently. I was marking mobs. Two of the dps kept doing mass aoe or high damage attacks immediately upon the pull with no regard to marks. After several deaths, I asked them to please follow the marks and give me a few seconds to build aggro, a piece of constructive criticism that was met with "learn to tank you noob," and a few other brilliant well thought out replies.
2. Healing MgT with a pally tank. The first pull, he ran in and grabbed multiple mobs without marking. He was unable to hold everything and the rest of us started dropping like flies. He started spamming "heal, ffs, heal!!!!"
3. Numerous cases of the above examples in one form another far more than I've ever experienced in the game before. As expected, the results of the bad pulls and shoddy dps are much MUCH more noticeable in the vanilla or BC dungeons.
Now, sure, there will always be examples of poor playing regardless of how blizz sets up the game. I'm sure there will be people that say the usual ," must be getting bad groups/ this never happens on MY super awesome server/ that's why I NEVER pugg and always run with my super awesome guildies that are always on at the same time as me and all have alts at the same lvl as me....etc, etc."
My point is this. The northrend dungoens seem to be teaching people how to be bad players. The expectation is that every encounter should be handled in the exact same way. It's teaching players outside of the raid environment that strategy is bad. You log in, plow through mobs to get to the boss. Rinse and repeat, grab your badges and shiny gear. There is no need for thought, no possibility for failure. Dps should be able to just mash their buttons while randomly targetting anything and at the end of each boss fight, easy easy loot.
For anyone that thinks this is an exaggeration, feel free to test this out on any server. Level up as a tank or healer. You'll see what I'm talking about.
Eshin Sep 18th 2009 12:19PM
Hah I said the exact same thing 3 comments down. Good to know someone is on the same lines of thought as me. I agree with you 100%