Officers' Quarters: An exclusive party
by Scott Andrews 
Sep 21st 2009 at 2:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
I get a lot of e-mails, many more than I could ever cover in this column. I hear about a lot of drama, drama of all different kinds, for all different reasons. So it always piques my interest when I read an e-mail like the one below, with an entirely new kind of guild drama. This one sounds more suited to a middle school class than a guild, but here it is: secret party drama. Read on for the details!
I am a member of a fairly progressed raiding guild. I am a member of the main raid. I am not an officer, but almost all the regular raiders are officers. In many ways the guild is good. Raiding rules and loot are fair.
However, it has become clear that the guild is dominated by a clique and that promotions to officer and most raid invites are largely based upon becoming part of the in group. Recently it was announced during raid that we would be taking a week off as many would be out of town. After the week off, during Vent chat, it became clear that the many out of town were all out of town together. That is, the guild officers were invited to an in person party (some traveled to go to it, others didn't but all were invited). I also learned that the officers intentionally tried to keep the party a secret beforehand.
The feedback I've received from some other long term people in the guild is that the guild plays favorites in selecting officers. The feedback I get is that basically the officers could care less if non-officers leave the guild and feel they can easily replace any non-officer raider. Recently some nice people, good players were promoted who were related to other officers. The problem is that they were promoted with no greater qualifications than many other non-officers except for the being related part.
Other examples of favoritism exist. For example, some officers have been allowed to bring alts to main raids but non-officers are told that this isn't allowed. Also, if part of the "in group" gets an an achievement or an alt dings, they get grats and comments in guild chat. If others do, they usually get silence.
Given all this I don't think this problem is solvable. My feedback is that this is long term and many non-officers and some officers don't like it but want the chance to raid so put up with it. I want to leave the guild. I do want to leave on good terms. What do I say when I leave (and who should I say it to)? And, if I apply to another guild what reason do I give for leaving? I don't think it would sound all that good to give the truth.
Whew. These three things will eventually drive members out of your guild:
- An officers-only clique
- Promoting only friends and family to officer status
- Different rules for officers
It's tough to feel like you're part of a guild when there's such a clear line between the ins and the outs. You want to feel like the people in charge care about you on some level. You want to feel like they have your back in some way. Otherwise, what's the point? You might as well be some random person they invited to a PUG.
I don't think the officers were out of line by wanting to throw a party. I also don't think they were out of line by keeping the attendance limited. If people had to travel to get there, they'd probably have to crash, and it's very possible that there was only room for a certain amount of people.
However, I do think they were out of line by being sneaky and deceptive about the event. It would have been much better to be honest about the situation, even if not everyone was invited.
Beyond that, they could have invited everyone just to be nice about it. The fewer people who aren't invited to an event like this, the worse it looks for you. If you have 40 guild members and you only invite 10, then you could pass it off as being practical. But if you have 40 guild members and you invite all but 10 people, then it looks like willful exclusion. What's the worst thing that could have happened if you invited those extra 10?
The worst thing that could happen by not inviting people, and being underhanded about it, has now happened: Everyone else found out about the party and they're feeling even more isolated from the officers and their friends.
As for the second item, I already covered it way back in 2007 in one of my first columns, called "How to Destroy Your Guild." (See point 4.)
Finally, there's no issue with giving your officers a few perks, but if you have a policy that only applies to nonofficers, you are wrong -- especially in a circumstance where raiding opportunities and loot are involved. Step one toward making your members resent you is to have different rules for officers and nonofficers.
So all in all, I'm not surprised that the person who sent me this e-mail is fed up and looking to gquit. It's an entrenched leadership that's apparently been operating this way for a long time. The officers don't seem to care that they're driving people away, since the people they really want in the guild are already in their clique.
You can either leave quietly and not mention any of this to them. Or you can tell them in no uncertain terms how they made you feel and why you made this decision. To choose between these options, you have to ask yourself two questions:
- Do you think it will make any bit of difference if you tell them why you're quitting?
- Do you care what happens to the other members of the guild that you're leaving behind?
As for the guilds you apply to, any whiff of drama in your reasons for leaving can raise a red flag. So you should either be completely upfront about your reasons with full disclosure and hope that your honesty will win them over. Or you should give a generic answer, like "My previous guild wasn't a good fit for me," and hope they don't ask too many questions.
It all depends on your comfort level. Just remember that you have a better chance of winding up in the same exact situation in your new guild if you choose to give a generic answer.
Whatever you do, don't be generic about your previous guild's leadership. "I had problems with my former officers" or "I didn't like my officers" can unfairly label you as a drama queen if you don't give further details.
Regardless, I hope you find yourself in a guild that treats its nonofficers with more respect!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
sikyon Sep 21st 2009 2:08PM
If they don't care if you stay or leave, just /gquit and they probably won't even notice.
Anom Sep 21st 2009 2:11PM
Just /gquit and find another raiding guild. If theres as much tension, its headed to the pits anyway.
Being in a guild is a two-way relationship. You provide the guild with something, and they give something back in return. The moment the guild fails to provide anything, theres no point staying.
I'm not a guild hopper, but whenever a guild failed provide me anything, I merely left and found another. If I'm in a raiding guild, I bring my skills, character, attention to help the raid succeed. In return I get gear. Likewise if i'm joining a casual guild, if I start feeling isolated, I'll leave and find another guild.
I could care less about attachments and histories with the guild. I'd prefer joining guild involved signing a contract, making it clear whose at fault when conflict arises.
Chuck Sep 21st 2009 10:58PM
It is should be "could NOT care less."
makebooms Sep 21st 2009 2:24PM
It doesn't sound like this guild is all that bad to me, if you are just looking for a raiding guild. Yes, the OP makes good points about bad practices - but I don't think the officer party is one of them.
I would recommend talking to the RL or GL or some other officer that you feel a fairly solid relationship with. Just state that you are going to search for a guild that you feel a stronger connection with. Don't express any bad feelings. When you look at the issues that the OP brought up, they are mostly nuisances - not anything worth having drama over, IMO. The raid progresses, the loot is distributed fairly according to the OP. It is a good group to raid with - it just isn't a good group to have a consistent social interaction with.
Explain to some of the officers that you want to make certain that you are leaving under good terms and feel no ill will. If you do feel ill will, I'd recommend you check those emotions for a couple of weeks. I have a feeling those emotions will fade pretty quickly once you separate yourself from them. Also, make it clear that you would a) appreciate being put on their friends lists if they ever need an extra body, b) ask if you can friends list them in case you ever need some extra bodies to fill out a PUG or something, and c) ask them if they would mind being a reference in any guild application you put out.
This ensures that you leave on good terms. It also provides you resources in addition to your new guild, since you maintain a good working relationship with good raiders. Finally, and this sounds like a key concern, you negate any issues with further applications. If I read a guild app with a vague reason for leaving the previous guild, but they list officers of that guild as references, I'm really not worried about drama.
Storm Eagle [Resident Capcom Megafan] Sep 21st 2009 2:26PM
These are the exact reasons I fear even joining a guild. I've been playing WoW off and on since it's inception 5 years ago and it seems to me that if you want to make it anywhere in the game you have to be in a guild. However, most guilds suffer from these problems. They're not making the efforts to gear the ranks and get them experience. They're running the same instances with the same crew week in and week out and leaving others out of experience. It's pointless to even join one most of the time.
I agree with everyone else though, I wish you luck on finding a decent guild and maybe you can send me a tip, huh?
Menchi Sep 21st 2009 2:33PM
Well of course most guilds bring the same people week in and week out, that the general depiction of a raiding guild.
Most raiding guilds have problems in some areas. Some is over recruitment leaving out new members when old ones join, others it's loot. Some it's just simple social issues. The goal is to simply app to the good guilds, don't waste time on joining the random ones that spam trade chat look for the guild that takes what it does somewhat seriously apply as you'll more then likely have a raid spot if you do well enough.
If for some reason you find yourself on the sidelines too much for your liking bring it up and if they say tuff luck say ok well i need a more active role and find a new guild. Most don't harbor any ill will as they understand the situation well enough.
Oh and find a guild run by adults nothing worse then joining a guild ran by kids in high school, those just end in failure.
theRaptor Sep 21st 2009 3:20PM
There isn't much point joining a regular raiding guild if you are a casual player. The whole setup of raids up to 3.2 has been that you need to farm the current raid so that you can be geared to take the next set of raids. This means when new raids come out many raiders don't want to go back to the over farmed previous raid to help out newbies, and so at best you will get an alt run once a week.
With 3.2 and free loot for doing basically nothing even a casual player can get geared for the current top tier raids.
Hoggersbud Sep 21st 2009 7:15PM
Well, one thing to consider is that you'll RARELY if ever hear from the folks whose guilds are trucking alone fine, with nothing to worry about.
What reason do you think they have for making a name for themselves? None, really, as few of them are a top-tier guild that needs publicity.
So you only hear about those things that get folks riled up.
But advice for finding a guild. First, if you can find a local crew of friends, that can be a way to establish a good relationship. Or a bad one. Depends. Second, just try some guilds, and if you leave, don't worry about it, as long as you aren't ninjaing the guild bank, they shouldn't complain. It's your game, your time, and nobody else is paying your subscription. So do what you like.
Rob Sep 21st 2009 9:33PM
Solid advice. I'll just point out the top five guilds know who each other is. So if you are an ass in one guild, forget about getting into another one at the same level (or even below) on that server. Also if you are a good player in a bad guild (ie has known ninjas, etc), then by association you look like a twit, so when you apply to a good guild it's 'oh you're from *that* guild'. Rep is only important at the top though (I think), so if you are one of the many guilds struggling through naxx and ulduar it's not a big deal if you guild hop.
Short story, if you want to do progression raiding on that server, make a good name for yourself (by leading good PUG raids, helping out people, staying off trade chat, only post constructively on official forums, etc.) All this stuff comes back, when it comes time for you to progress or if your guild wants to start doing 25s. Granted, people take the game too seriously, but there it is.
alpha5099 Sep 21st 2009 2:30PM
I must say, I find myself in a somewhat similar situation. I joined my friend's guild shortly after dinging 80, and we're both somewhat unhappy with the guild. There is definitely a core in-group which is the heart of the guild, but we've been hemorrhaging members for months, and now it just feels like I'm the one stranger in guild chat with a bunch of RL friends.
Shortly after joining, I ended up not playing my main for quite a while, and even though I've been playing my main consistently since 3.2 came out, I got myself a rep for being a lurker, which I have had a hard time shaking.
It doesn't help that my schedule doesn't really mesh with the rare times the guild scrounges together enough people to raid. I'd certainly like to get into some Naxx or Uld, but I inevitably seem to be online a couple hours too late. As it is now, with only a couple of exceptions, I do pretty much everything in PUGs.
I really need to just man up and get myself out of this dying guild, and find another that better fits my schedule and that I'll just generally feel more welcomed in.
visitingl337n00b Sep 21st 2009 2:40PM
As the guild leader of a guild that is run by a "clique" I think this article is really missing the mark. My guild was started by my friends from university, we are always going to be the ones running it, and the officer core is going to have our friends and family. None of these things in themselves constitute a problem, that's just what our guild is. I think all the guild members are aware that the officers are real life friends.
I think it's important to separate the problem from the symptoms. If I was having a party that I was inviting many of our officers to (real life example, my wedding last winter) I would not invite guild members who I didn't know, and I would be shocked if any of them felt left out; we play WoW together but that is the extent of our relationship, whereas the officers in the guild are all friends I've known for years. If people in the guild, however, feel that they are being left out of the officer clique, then clearly the officers are alienating their members. You do that with your day-to-day attitude, not with a one-time out-of-game event. Any officer core can do this: whether they are real life friends or not, whether they are a clique or an attempted meritocracy.
There is also the issue of officer promotions. It is not necessarily part of the life of every guild that people are promoted to officer. The non-officer raiders in my guild are people who want to show up at raid times, have fun raiding and get loot. If you want to be promoted and take on a leadership role then you need to find a guild where this is a possibility.
But before you go looking for a guild that is a meritocracy so you can get promoted, make sure you objectively evaluate whether you will. Is the reason you are seen to be replacable because you *are* replacable? If you are a dpser doing middle of the pack damage then the answer is probably yes, and the problem with you going unrecognized might be that you don't do anything that makes yourself recognizable.
Lastly, if you are looking for good fake reasons to leave your guild that noone will question, you can always say that you prefer the new guild's raid schedule (assuming their times don't completely overlap). Alternatively, a way to simply explain your reason would be to say that your old guild is more of a friends-and-family guild and you want to be in a serious raiding guild; very few guilds wouldn't want to hear that.
MeowCat Sep 21st 2009 2:47PM
I would agree with you as long as you are clear about this with all members. Then you're golden. However, if you open the guild to others and don't tell them, it it THE problem and you're asking for trouble.
Scott Sep 21st 2009 2:50PM
^This
Rob Sep 21st 2009 3:00PM
Pretty solid reasoning, but I'm also co-GL of a largish social raiding guild. Our officer core is based on merit, not F&F. Now, its fine if you run that type of guild, not saying its bad. But do your friends and family really merit an officer position? If it's a small guild that doesn't do anything, its no big deal. But in a guild that does many raids and wants to get something done, you really need to make sure the core of the guild (the officers) is the best guild members you have at your disposal. Also, even among good members, interest in the game waxes and wanes. There was one guy, a good friend (all the officers should be pretty close, it does create drama if that's not the case), anyway we love him dearly, but he went on the road (work stuff) for several months now, so we understandably ratcheted back our expectations from him and promoted someone in his stead.
Officer and even GL rotation is absolutely essential for running a guild for any length of time. We're now coming upon our first year anniversary and we've rotated maybe a dozen officers through. Most of them ended up WOW quiting, some just were poor fits.
I think what's unstated in the OP's letter is that perhaps the officers aren't all that good at promoting the guilds interests over their own, and without fair loot systems and guild activities that everyone wants to do, that's just asking for guild death. Why would a bunch of people want to work on stuff so you get all the glory (answer: they dont).
ziggler Sep 21st 2009 3:16PM
thks visitingl337n00b
was going to start screaming "how da hell can u stay in that guild?!?!", but them i remembered the amount of "friends groups" we have around in our guild (yah, one officers "group" and the rest may sound complicated, imagine that in a guild thats has 95 regular raiders yelling for raid spots in one 25 and two 10 groups...) and one advice, guy with the question, try to prove yourself and in no time you will be in that group believe me, seen it happening to a lot of people, sometimes its just something like getting a fish feast for every try sometimes it has to do with real raid skills (like being the only person alive at a certain 1% wipe and still somehow manage to take final 1% down).
The only question is, do you want to be in that group or do you want that group to end?
first case, prove yourself, second case, change guild.
(sorry for my poor english)
Hendrata Sep 21st 2009 3:38PM
I can see your point, and after further thought, this is my take:
1. Inviting just a select few (even 30 out of 40) to a RL party is perfectly fine.
2. Limiting officers role to that clique's relatives is also fine. Often, officer role comes with a perk of certain bank tab access and withdrawal, and I can only trust people whom I've met IRL. Heck, now I have a casual guild where all members are RL acquaintances (and invites are given to RL acquaintances only). We have an open free-for-all bank. But the moment we decide to convert / open guild membership to more people, we have to distinguish this RL-based trust in the form of officer ranks.
3. Different treatments that the OP is asking is NOT fine. If officer's alt dings and/or get achievements, they get grats and comments, but others get silence. This is not fine. Seriously, how hard is it to just be nice and say grats? It's only 5 letters.
In the end, I think the OP is right in wanting to leave, but don't think that the clique-ness itself is necessarily bad. A guild can be clique-y and still be nice to those outside of that clique.
TheMediator Sep 21st 2009 6:46PM
Perhaps you should have attempted to join their group of friends. To be honest the situation seems pretty natural to me, if you're just the "join the guild to raid with them" guy then that is all that they want out of you, and you should expect that you either raid with your best or get left out. However, if you're actually there raiding for fun and you're friends with them, then it doesn't really matter what character you bring as long as you're not a detriment to the raid. Don't be a social retard in the future, being friendly with people isn't hard, just do it and you'll be happier as a player, and you won't be left out.
MeowCat Sep 21st 2009 2:44PM
A lot of good advice here but I would follow (primarily) this...
Respond in a way that you can live with once the decision is done. In other words, do what you think is right. Only you can decide what that is. Your personality will dictate this. I would be less concerned with feather ruffling and trivial etiquette and think about what you need to do. I am not saying, if you happen to be the proud owner of an anti-social personality, that you attack people. What I hope to convey is that you do not want to look back at this online experience and hate the way you handled it.
Whatever you decide to do...good luck!
Frank Sep 21st 2009 3:14PM
i agree. i will also add that it seems to me that the OP will do the right thing because s/he clearly cares enough about the guild and the situation to write in about this problem in the first place. i personally would leave the guild, but do it on the best terms possible, and maintain connections with as many of the guildies who i considered friends as possible.
Scott Sep 21st 2009 2:43PM
/gquit
While forming groups of guildies you enjoy running with is enjoyable, cliques often show the downside to excluding others. The last guild I was in, officers blatantly gave nearly all the credit to one tank and healer when we downed Sarth 3D, excluding the remaining 23 people who were involved. With this, and giving officers bonus DKP even if they didn't attend raids, things went sour quick. In this situation, it's best to leave now before more splintering occurs and find yourself some respectable people to run with.