Patch 3.3 PTR: Rogues learn to stealth properly
by Alex Ziebart 
Oct 1st 2009 at 9:30PM
The second change seems to aim for that same purpose: Making the first ten levels as a rogue feel more rogue-like.
Stealth: This ability no longer has multiple ranks. While active, the single rank of this ability (available at level 1) allows rogues to move at 70% movement speed.Stealth is a lot less fun when it's as slow as molasses, isn't it?
The third change is the big one. The one that rogues have wanted for years now. Through thick and thin, this is an issue that has always been on the list. We heard the change was coming a few days ago, and now we get to see the form it might take.
Vanish: For the first second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by taking damage or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability.A change like that just might render Chase's Vanish macro obsolete, and we can certainly hope it does. Now, the cynical side of us all expects some pretty harsh backlash from that sort of change. Neither Chase nor myself will be particularly shocked if Vanish inflicts a Hand of Protection styled pacify effect for the duration of the immunity. We all hope and pray it doesn't happen, but right now a working Vanish with no drawbacks is an idea too good to be true.
We'll have an eye on the PTR and keep everyone updated as the patch develops.
Filed under: Rogue, Patches, Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Noscy Oct 1st 2009 9:41PM
"Vanish: For the first second after this ability is used, neither Vanish nor Stealth can be broken by taking damage or being the victim of a hostile spell or ability."
Blizz seem to be unable to solve the issue, so they give them an immunity for a whole second... so spells already inflight won't break it... seems fair.
Phoenix Oct 1st 2009 10:15PM
This is NOT giving rogues an immunity, we will still take any and all damage inflicted upon us during this 1 second of permanent stealth, and possibly even get our faces eaten by that damage. All it says is that stealth will not break from that damage.
Besides, vanish already has something like a 0.2 or 0.15 second immunity (due to server lag and such) that allows us to cancel out most spells in flight if properly timed. That might be removed with this change, which would be a definite "fix" but not necessarily the one we want.
Noscy Oct 1st 2009 10:26PM
I shouldn't of said immunity, because it clearly isn't. On my mage I tend to break a rogues vanish quite easily, so I tend to think that this will be quite significant but not game breaking, but we'll have to see how it pans out.
Kurdaj Oct 1st 2009 10:48PM
Check it out:
If a Rogue comes out of Stealth to stunlock, and at the conclusion of that pops Vanish but continues to beat on me, and gets a full additional second with which to beat on me before re-applying Cheap Shot, myself and every other caster will scream OVERPOWERED.
The whole system is too complicated. Was the problem that Rogues were getting damaged while they tried to Vaniosh, or just still auto-attacking even after they activated Vanish? Were the Rogues getting hit by AoEs or Thorns?
Stealth is such an overpowered ability, and Blizzard is buffing Rogues to make getting into Stealth easier. Rogue Stealth is the old Warlock Chaos Bolt - an overpowered ability in a weak class. However, I wouldn't exactly say Rogues were weak.
Kakistocracy Oct 1st 2009 11:33PM
I wonder if you could polymorph a rogue as it vanishes without breaking stealth, I'd love to see a sneaky turtle.
The mage's invis gives (or gave) immunity right as it takes effect. I once took what the combat log described as 19k damage overkill without a scratch thanks to lucky timing during a wipe.
Jafari Oct 2nd 2009 12:06PM
The mage thing is a little different because invisibility puts you on a whole 'nother plane of existence.
I think that the vanish thing will work like the fade out time of invisibility, except that the stealth will be instant, and damage won't break it for a second. This does mean that mages need to wait a moment before frost nova after a vanish, or more likely, follow it up with a few arcane explosions.
Would be funny to be in stealth and rooted.
Seamus Oct 1st 2009 9:41PM
Is there any reason to take Camouflage (in Subtlety) now?
Sichas Oct 1st 2009 9:48PM
This is just my projection on the issue, and it may or may not be correct. I have no information to base this on aside from past changes.
I would presume that the talent will be removed or redone to alter a different skill.
moapus Oct 1st 2009 9:52PM
It will just make you're stealthed speed at 85% speed.
NeoPhobos Oct 1st 2009 10:00PM
Why would anything be changed with Camouflage, and why would there not be a need to take it after 3.3 if you have it now?
The max rank Stealth (gained at L60) is currently 70% untalented, nothing's changed with that. The only difference with the change is that Stealth will ALWAYS be 70% untalented, instead of 50-60-65-70%
NeoPhobos Oct 1st 2009 10:05PM
Edit to my previous post...
If the only reason you would take Camouflage previously was to move faster in stealth WHILE LEVELING, then yes, there wouldn't be too much point to taking it. But, if you still talent Camouflage after L60 right now, then there is effectively no change.
Basically, as with many of the changes for this round of PTR, this Stealth "buff" is aimed towards more efficient leveling, that's it.
Ji Oct 1st 2009 10:09PM
Perhaps we will see the camouflage talent changed to 80/90/100% speed, and Fleet footed will be changed to a snare breaking/sprint increasing activation talent.
:P
Dreadheart Oct 1st 2009 10:19PM
I play a rogue as my main and I think the 1 second immunity is too long. Vanish breaking immediately is the problem, though I see it as a small one and not worth the attention it is getting. Rogues should still be susceptible to having vanish broken by DoTs and AoE when they haven't timed the vanish smartly or used CoS before it.
Akrios at RogueRogue describes the situation well and I agree with his take on it.
This seems to be primarily about vanish in pvp. Though I used to play a fair bit of pvp back before WotLK I now put almost all my time into pve raiding. For me, vanish acts as a quick agro wipe in sticky situations or as a sneaky way of occaisionally surviving a sure raid wipe. Rogues are in a solid position in pve right now - strong dps, moderate survivability, and fun abilities. If other rogue abilities get nerfed as a result of this I will be rather disappointed.
Lemons Oct 1st 2009 10:54PM
"Though I used to play a fair bit of pvp back before WotLK I now put almost all my time into pve raiding."
Your comment confused me until I read this sentence.
"If other rogue abilities get nerfed as a result of this I will be rather disappointed."
Why would they? This isn't a buff to vanish it's a fix meant to get it working how it should have worked from day one.
valisil Oct 1st 2009 11:32PM
Indeed i would hope they do not nerf our regular abilities. Blizzard themselves admited it wasn't working right, so I see this as a long coming fix not a buff. If they do try and nerf us I say take this fix back and leave us how we are, it's not like it's THAT great anyway
MountainLynx Oct 2nd 2009 12:57AM
There is still a downfall, though. If Vanish is poorly timed, the Rogue will still take damage. It may not break Stealth if it lands within that 1 second (which is shorter than the GCD I might add), but if the damage meets or exceeds the Rogue's remaining health, the Rogue will still kiss the floor, at which point Stealth will fade anyway.
Kwizz Oct 1st 2009 11:39PM
Why is this so complex? I want to push the button to get out of combat, dump all aggro and go invisible. If something was being aimed at me I want it to miss. Let me keep the speed bump, and give me a moment to get AWAY. I love to reopen but what I really want is to be the deep subtle rogue and get away, like a reverse shadowstep. What vanish really needs is a teleport component so we jump out of AoE range, which would also put us out of Ambush range, and hell, put ShS on a cooldown for 4 seconds.
Eskarel Oct 2nd 2009 10:25AM
I know this comment has been downrated, but it gets asked so many times, and so many people seem not to understand it that I'm going to answer it anyway.
The vanish bug is hard, immensely hard, to fix.
All actions in WoW happen on the server, not on the client, this is both to prevent cheating and to reduce overall latency by having a central point of communication.
This means that when you hit Vanish, the client sends a message to the WoW server telling it you've tried to cast vanish, and the WoW server sends a message back to you client saying that you've cast it, and to all other relevant clients causing the effects that vanish has.
All of this takes time, and it's not always the same amount of time. People have different latency, different computers, different network routes, etc. This means that the amount of time between when you cast vanish and when you're actually vanished on all relevant clients and the server can be, depending on latency, up to several seconds.
For some abilities(paladin bubble for instance) this doesn't really matter, since you only have to get the signal for the bubble to the server before the signal for whatever damaging ability gets used on you. The server will mark you as immune and the damage won't go through.
For vanish(and most likely mage invisibility though that's not broken by damage) however, you don't actually have any immunity(by design). You merely become invisible and more importantly unable to be targeted by an opponent.
So if you cast vanish, and your opponent uses a damaging ability on you before you are vanished on their system, the server will not block it, it's damage and blocking damage isn't what Vanish does. However, this damage will also take you out of stealth, which is a problem and the crux of the bug.
Blizzard had a number of options for trying to solve this, most of which involve granting some kind of immunity. Either in the form of being immune to damage or making vanish not break from certain sources of damage, or as they chose in the end, not break from damage for a certain period of time.
Blizzard is somewhat reluctant to give Rogues additional immunities, particularly in the area of stealth because rogues are viewed as being rather over powered(though I can tell you from trying to heal the little buggers in PvE that they've got some serious survivability problems). In an ideal world none of this would be necessary because no one would have any latency and everything would just work, but this isn't an ideal world and it's taken Blizzard a long time to come up with a solution which wasn't massively more game breaking than the bug, as is this is going to be a pretty major hit for classes particularly vulnerable to rogues, or who had been counting on well timed AoE to minimize the damage potential of vanish.
Jafari Oct 2nd 2009 12:06PM
Kwizz
-- you want a disengage type ability linked to vanish? That would be pretty cool. Super OP, but definitely something to grin about.
Josin Oct 1st 2009 11:56PM
I don't see a reason to add drawbacks when they're essentially just making Vanish finally work as intended. (Despite years of "working as intended" from the devs.)