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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Ragequit fallout
by Scott Andrews 
Oct 5th 2009 at 1:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
If you've played WoW long enough, and if you've raided enough, odds are you've wanted to quit your guild right in the middle of a run at some point. Some people actually go through with it. I'll never forget the night many years ago when our raid's main tank quit the guild and zoned out of Onyxia's Lair while he was tanking the boss. Yeah, that guy had some anger issues . . .
But what happens when a guild leader ragequits in the middle of a raid? Read on to find out!
Hi Scott,
A friend and I started a guild about 5 months back. I assumed the Co-Gm role, led the raids and recruited quite a bit. After a slow start we ended up making an impact on the server as a stand up crew and were moving into the top rankings for 10 and cracking the 25 man progression as well. The other Co-Gm was very good at handling issues and I admit that was not my strong point. Things worked really well until unfortunately I had an "EMO" moment.
Real life stress crept into my enjoyment of WoW. Coincidentally issues started arising as to the direction the guild should head. We had 2 10 man raids into Ulduar and 2 nights of 25 man raiding (ToC and Ulduar). What I had been doing is moving one of the 10 Man Ulduar groups into ToC and pushing 10 Ulduar clear with the other group. This led to some jealousy and complaining and my co-gm who is great at handling these issues conspicuously became absent after bringing up the discussion. So ensues the drama.
The main issue is that the group that was focusing Ulduar contained 4 members from our sister guild that we had been working with from the beginning when we did not have as many members. In vent some of the disgruntled were bashing this group. The sister guild is a 4 member guild and they are a family. This setup was preferred by the father so their younger daughter wasn't exposed to some of the crude maturer aspects of the game. However the "father" of our sister guild heard his daughter being bashed out of jealousy in vent and I became very upset that this discussion was not being held privately with me or the other officers of the guild. 2 of the guildies also did not want to run ToC as it was too difficult and did not want us picking up pugs to fill out our 25 man raids that were starting to feel some effects from the back to school blues. They wanted to solely run 10 Ulduar. They also said they had discussed this with the other GM over the last 3 hours and she agreed.
The night this all occured was our 10 man ulduar run with the sister guild. Acquiescing to the complaints I decided I would take guildies only on a ten man Ulduar run. I was however boiling at the disrespect shown to some very reliable players and friends. Combine this with the fact that one of the main complaintants regularly signs up and does not show up for raids and the other frequently needs to leave the raid early only to remain online. I was mad, I should've controlled myself better but on top of the stress from real life and now stress from the guild I exploded during the run.
I messaged my co-gm that i didn't appreciate the maelstrom I stepped into that I felt she was a party to. I told her that if we weren't going to focus on progression, which in my opinion was ToC and 25 man content, that I would be leaving the guild. Her response naturally was very curt as I was and I proceeded to gquit after we downed the next boss. Half of the members agreed with me about the guildies being out of line but no one including myself thinks my gquit was justified.
I committed the ultimate sin in quitting during a raid, although it was a pause. Thinking rationally and not being emo, I realize I threw away a very good thing and deeply regret it. The guild subsequently disbanded with the co-gm and the complaintants starting a new guild. I had come to the conclusion that I should retire from wow as I was perceiving wow as being stressful as opposed to the RL issues I was tackling. Combined with everything just being a huge misunderstanding and my eventual overreaction.
Subsequently I have decided to come back (it really was just a weekend off). In your opinion should the guild forgive me and reunite? How could I go about rebuilding their trust that was completely shattered by my 1 emo moment that ultimately led to the dissolving of the guild. I have gotten half of the members back but the other half appears to be holding a grudge, although they are not outwardly hostile to me there clearly are some very hard feelings (not wanting me to have the new vent password or refusing to pick me up if they are spamming for more to fill out their raids, and yes they are using pug's...). The co-gm and her new guild (she is not running raids just enjoying logging and killing things) seem to be enjoying themselves but I know everyone would be happy if we reformed. I would even volunteer to not be in charge as punishment for my one moment of weakness.
Sincerely,
Emo Raid Leader
PS I do know what I did is the ultimate wrong and I have apologized profusely and have requested forgiveness from every member. Unfortunately the one lapse in judgement supersedes 99% of the great job I did and fun everyone had as the guild progressed.
Hi, ERL. You definitely did not do anyone a favor by the way you acted. However, I think you are being a bit hard on yourself. You had a reason to be angry. Your co-guild leader made a huge decision without consulting you. I don't know what sort of arrangement you had with her. As the raid leader, it seems to me that you should have been an important part of any discussion about the direction of the guild's raiding. Combined with the Vent drama, I don't blame you for being upset.
Still, as you admit, you handled the situation poorly. It's never a good idea to make a major decision when you're in a state of heightened emotion, whether you're a guild leader or a new recruit. I understand that you wanted to get away from the guild for a while, but simply logging off would have been far less damaging to the guild than quitting. I doubt that it would have endeared you to your members, but coming back the next day and apologizing could have kept the guild together. Then you could have had a reasonable discussion with your co-leader about your raiding situation, handled the Vent drama in a constructive way, and moved on as a guild.
Instead, your guild fell apart. You want to do you best to make it right, and I respect that. You will have to eat some crow here. You need to approach the situation both humbly and delicately. You can't push too hard. If someone doesn't want to come back, respect their decision.
Whether or not your former members forgive you is up to them. I honestly don't see a point in holding a grudge, although I can understand if they just don't want to associate with you anymore.
The faith of your former members in you has been greatly diminished, so your best option would be to organize the guild under another leader. Speak to the players you trust and find someone who would make a good candidate that's willing to give it another try. That person should be the one to go about recruiting the old crew. You should stay out of the spotlight, as a member but not an officer.
Realize, however, that the person you ask to lead the guild may institute policies that you don't agree with 100%. You can make suggestions, but ultimately you will have to live with his or her decisions. It's possible, in the future, after you've proven that you can stay calm and rational, that you'll be able to carry out more of a leadership role. For now, however, you need to let others run the show.
It sounds like, with the exception of some bad apples, the guild worked well together. With any luck, most former members will be eager to return. You probably won't get everyone back, and you may have to add some new players.
On your end, the most important part of this whole mess is that you forgive yourself. We all make mistakes, particularly when we're feeling stressed and wronged. You can't beat yourself up over this one terrible moment forever. Apologize and then move on. Hopefully, everyone else will, too.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Jafari Oct 5th 2009 3:07PM
One of the first nights I tanked in a new guild (naxx), a hunter kept pulling aggro within 2 global cooldowns of my engaging bosses. I asked him in vent what he was doing, and he said "explosive shot." I then asked if he was using misdirect (knowing he was not). He asked "what's misdirect" and then called me a shi#y tank and to stick to my own class mechanics.
That got me mad, so I /inspected his gear and saw that he had no enchants except a 5 stamina to bracers, and had some empty gem slots. I called him out on it, and he /gquit right then. I felt kind of bad about it later, so I went to the AH and bought him some AP/Crit leg enchants and an agi to cloak enchant and sent them to him in the in-game mail with a note that said to put them on his gear and that if he had any questions about gems/enchants/whatever, to send a tell.
To my surprise, he rejoined the guild a week later, with all the proper enchants, and not only that, but could recite many boss fight tactics from wowhead verbatim. He became one of my best friends in the guild.
JKWood Oct 5th 2009 3:50PM
Heartwarming story, that. I found a 55 pally on my server that I had run Deadmines with one time, and had labeled annoying because he kept going on about some sword he had to get from the boss... But now, he was asking if anyone could spare some gold for gear. I whispered him to find out what was up, and found out that his brother had sold his gear while he was off at camp. Remembering the stories of kindness topic from the other day, I bought him four frostweave bags and gave him 400g, then told him to pass on the kindness as he could.
Proverbs 15:1, "A soft answer turns away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Sometimes the best thing we can do when others wrong us, is to put aside our pride and do what we can to help them.
HealsofSteel Oct 5th 2009 3:15PM
It sounds to me like the guild had some other issues to begin with and was near the boiling point already. Your actions served as the escape for all of these frustrations. Its kind of like a balloon. As more and more air is added the rubber exterior of the balloon becomes weaker. Not just in one place, but everywhere. Ultimately it is one spot on the balloon that gives and the balloon pops. It was just this spot that was weakened, it was the whole balloon. And if this spot had not burst there would have been another one that would have. Had this issue with your guild not come to a head when it did, it still would have eventually. It sounds to me like there was a more boiling beneath the surface than what you may have realized. You just provided the opportunity for others to do what they had likley been waiting for.
Phoulmouth Oct 5th 2009 3:30PM
I think wasting space on this site by dedicating it a failguild drama is a bad idea.
DT Oct 5th 2009 3:37PM
Great responses and write up Scott.
I'm the EMO RL.. The worst, absolute worst thing that happened with all this is that it led to the destruction of a great WoW friendship. Running a guild together was a complete mistake and about as deep as we go now is running the occasional daily. The only reason it worked as well and for as long as it did was that we were very good friends.
The guild has been rebuilt however much of the responsability has been given to a well respected former officer. However, frequently I am asked to run the raids, plan the schedule and be the leader. Once you hold that position it is tough for members to let you escape from it. As tempting as it was for me to just come back and join a different end game raiding guild I did feel I owed the group a chance to reform and then I could assume my retirement raider spot as I should've done before rage quitting.
The complaintants guild folded into a larger guild within a month and most of the old crew raids with the original guild but our new raids are well over subscribed. I believe the main complaintant has had computer issues and hasn't logged in a few weeks.
There is much I have taken away from this experience and also for those of you reading go easy on your GM and RL they do a lot to keep the group going. To you GM's and RL's be wary of the folks who park in vent. Not just to do an achievement or something that requires communication. The folks who play this game to be in vent, all the time, from my experience will generate a significant portion of your "drama", intentional, unintentional or manufactured.
Most of our pug's that we used to do 25 content joined the guild ( it was never disbanded just many members left and came back) and we have been very successful and everyone seems to enjoy clearing end game content. Although I do have fun, the raids are not the same for me as I do wish some more of the old group or a couple of specific x-guildies would return.
I know get over it...easier said then done my friends.
Vasco Oct 5th 2009 4:38PM
When its not fun its time to find a different group to have fun with.
Athinah Oct 5th 2009 5:11PM
I had a officer once flip out for no real reason, and now i find it really hard to trust him, my thoughts are always "Will he flip out on me next?, Will he do it again? i don't even know this person in real life, how could i be 100% sure he won't do it again?" See the members of his guild might be holding a grudge, it might just be hard to trust him after he abandon them like that in the middle of a run.
Rhino Oct 5th 2009 5:43PM
I learned the hard way there's such animal as a Co-GM. Oh sure, you may start out with the best intentions of running a guild together, but the ability to edit the bank, ranks, and tabard is too much power for 2 people to share in WoW.
He who edits the tabard, runs the guild. You'll have drama llamas whispering into the ear of the GM complaining about how unfair the "Co-GM" is being. Or how he's rude. Or his breath stinks. Whatever.
Next thing you know, the "Co-GM" is no longer a Co-GM, and the GM reigns supreme.
So to anyone out there that's starting a guild, my best advice is to establish the boundries early. Let their be no mistake that only one person can be leader. And while that one person may be wise enough to listen to certain guildies and give certaing guildies rank over others, don't set yourself up for drama and failure.
The Co-GM is a myth. Anyone who says different can edit the tabard.
Sparcrypt Oct 5th 2009 9:38PM
I frequently lead raids and I find it how you run depends heavily on what kind of people you have in your group. Most 10 man raids I find run themselves just fine if you gently guide them along, you don't need to be a nazi leader and if you have a good raid you'll all have fun.
However in this game idiots do creep in.. my solution is a zero tolerance for it. You want to be crude and act immature? Go somewhere else. Humor is great and raids often have a friendly banter running over vent and in chat, but if you can't figure out where the line is then too bad, go find another guild.
Yet at the same time, good people can use the game to take out other frustrations.. lord knows I've done it, and in that case, a little subtlety is called for.
In this situation my solution would have been to immediately call all the offending players and the father of the guild into a private vent channel and let them know in no uncertain terms what they were doing was no acceptable - those 4 members are obviously guildies in all but name and keep their own tag for a very specific and completely valid reason.
In situations like this the best course is to present the case to them and have them try and dispute it.. for example:
You: So, why don't you want them in the run?
Them: They're not in our guild! It's not fair!
You: They've run with us from day one and helped us be the guild we are today, what's the problem?
Them: Well then they should join the guild!
You: They are in their own, 4 person guild to protect a young girl from some of the more mature aspects of the game, what's wrong with that?
Them: Um...
You: We can have them join if you like but only if we start heavily enforcing clean guild chat with severe penalties for things that shouldn't be heard by minors... but it's a lose lose situation, what we have now is win win.
Them: Well...
You: So does anyone have any problems with those 4 players OTHER then the fact they have a different tag floating under their name? Are they unreliable? Do they play badly?
Them: Well... no...
You: So your ONLY complaint is they're not in this guild, despite acting in every way like a good guild member does but doing so in a way that lets the whole family enjoy the game?
Them: *silence*
You: I'm listening here guys, if there are ANY problems or legit complaints, now is the time!
Them: *more silence*
You: So there are clearly no problems with the current setup and we can expect no more bashing of raid members? Good talk guys, lets go raid.
And all of a sudden you've taken the wind from their sails and given them no room to bitch about it, what's more they now KNOW how stupid their complaint is. If you can turn their argument around back on themselves it will defuse their argument and leave them with nothing to complain about behind your back.
Priestess Nov 1st 2009 3:21AM
I've been an officer of my guild for a long time, and I honestly feel that a lot of situations like the ones discussed here are the GUILD'S fault. In my guild, we are a raiding guild that clears the full content. We also consider ourselves "casual" because we all agree that it's a game and if it's not fun, we're going to do something else. We're not small either. And IMO you *can* co-GM if you've got the right two (or three?) people. So when I see things like all this, I see players in all levels of leadership or participation who are putting negative pressure on others, being intentionally mean, etc (its all covered in this topic), and forcing a bad situation to come up or to explode.
I see this issue to be - in the VERY least - a contributing factor in blowouts and burnouts. Our guild has had people get by our screening process who are jerks and try to cause drama, but people like that who are met with cool heads and don't get a rise out of anyone just quit, and they can't even QQ about it because it looks pretty stupid to say "They weren't listening to me whine and they won't let me steal!"
While we might not continue to raid with people who show themelves to be selfish and unreliable by leaving during raids, being jerks, etc, the entire rest of our guild can collectively say, "Ah, sorry you're having a rough time. Hope you find a way to enjoy the game." It creates a comfortable atmosphere where people know what to expect but don't have to stress about it. It also creates a place where few, if any, members are getting burnout. We expect our raiders to show up and raid, and they do because while we won't make you, or chew you out if you don't, or anything like it, we will measure your performance and your behavior towards others and invite you accordingly.
By having cool-headed, reasonable, mature, responsible leaders, it's taken us several years to build to where we are, but we have created a guild that's drama free, successful, and doesn't get ourselves into these situations. It's never happened. And that's known on our server. So I vouch that it's possible. IMO it just doesn't happen much because this game has a large concentration of immature, selfish, rude, and otherwise unsavory characters in it, and they do have a tendency to get together and have trouble. In short, I strongly believe that the guild itself has a great deal to do with having its members - especially its leaders - get angry and get burnt out. While your response to a situation is ultimately your own, I believe there's more to these things than one person having a bad time.
Daniel Oct 6th 2009 12:11AM
Personally i think the RL is mistaken.. the fact that the guild split and the complainers made a separate guild means it was going to happen sooner or later anyways.
So I wouldn't feel sorry for anything, other then you didn't quit and go off separate directions earlier.
tomteboda Oct 8th 2009 7:24PM
I think when a raid leader and guild leader has become subject to persistent disrespect and abuse, and the co-guild leader and other officers are refusing to come to their defense, then it is a setup for an "emo /gquit". The blame here as far as I'm concerns lies not on the person who said "enough is enough already!" but on the people who created at atmosphere that was totally toxic to one of the guild's most dedicated servants. The raid leader profiled here did the right thing by leaving, by refusing to associate himself with those who will abuse other people and display such shocking lack of loyalty. His only real mistake is wanting to go back with those same self-centered jerks.
Just goes to prove my dad's statement, "If you do a little more than is expected of you every day, soon more is expected of you".
SavaFromBonechewer Oct 6th 2009 2:12AM
Lol I was tanking 25 OS 3D when it was actualy hard and after about 5 wipe -500dkp for everyone in the raid and plenty of shit talking in vent about tanks and heals not doing their jobs from our raid leader who was a dps. I did the ole /gquit, good choice for me. Wow had gotten more of a job then fun. I already have a job and dont need another one online. Progression is nice but when the gear cant match the raid. chill the hell out
Uncle Remus Oct 6th 2009 10:09AM
I think it's interesting that you seem rational and yet you don't recruit to fill 4 raid slots.
Rational rationality is un-rational.
4 Raid slots? Really? You can't recruit to fill those? Even with DK's?
I'll tell you what, I'm not in some bleeding-edge content guild. But I will tell most of you this:
Why not just PUG everything if you aren't going to form a raid guild around the premise of actually raiding. I would be pissed at you, too. Not for /gquitting (that would be a good thing, imo), I'd be pissed at you because my time has no value to you at all.
I play with my friends, too. And I just built a new guild in 2 weeks. Because we stated in our policies that we respect your time, AFK's longer than 5 minutes and you'll be swapped out. Same with DC's.
You wanna log into raid, then raid. You wanna help some negligent parent (who should be reading to his daughter) shield her from crap she hears on TV every day, then I call you out:
Stop fronting. You're not taking anybody seriously. Other than some idiot negligent parent.
Kyshtym Oct 10th 2009 10:25AM
Running a raiding is stressful. Particularly if the GM or Co GMs don't delegate responsibility well. It seems to me that issues of responsibility or dodging of them were piling up way before this episode. If I was in the shoes of the other GM I would be pretty annoyed to be left handling the complaint department 24 7 on top of everything else. Maybe he/she remained silent on this ONE occasion to see how you would handle it, or maybe to help allieviate the stress of dealing with that ALL the time. Not to be jerky about it, but I would have said something to you prior about handling some of it or adding another GM who could.
Quoting the original letter:
"The other Co-Gm was very good at handling issues and I admit that was not my strong point. "
I think the other GM may have been 'stuck' handling alot of the burden of leadership and was feeling resentful about it.
I would also imagine that running 2 groups, 1 of which was getting to see further content/loot/lore etc (on top of having non guildies) than the other, which may have been mired in progression would make some in Sqad B frustrated. So I can understand to a degree the disgruntled feeling of some of the guild. I'm curious if both GM's were running with the further group? Some competition between groups in guild is healthy and good but it needs to be handled carefully so people don't feel like they are second class guildies, particularly if running with non guildies.
Just my 2 cents. Don't feel too bad about it, but leading is hard and holding a lead position is stressful and annoying when people don't appreciate the time put in. I think if it was too much to hold a lead position, your friend would have understood if you'd communicated, I can't handle this, or we need more officers to help spread the work around. I would in the future try to see the other people's perspectives a bit more.
Good luck!