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by Mike Schramm 
Oct 9th 2009 at 1:00PM
But I can see Tyl's friend's point: games are much less about telling these days and more about showing. You might understand how, if you've never played an MMO before, reading the quest text can take you right out of the game, rather than running off with an NPC or having the game show you rather than just tell you what to do. And Blizzard is getting there: later in the thread Slorkuz points out the recent Afrasiabi interview, and talks about how Alex mentions new ways of doing quests. For example, the quest team is trying to do a quest with no text, or direct players' attention without actually telling them, "look here." Text is the easiest and most basic way to help players accomplish goals, but as the game moves on, even the developers realize it's not the most elegant or immersive way to do it.
Filed under: Odds and ends, Quests, Lore, NPCs
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Captn Obvious Oct 9th 2009 2:36PM
Only one thing to say in this debate.
TL:DR
moonblaze Oct 9th 2009 2:49PM
I replayed Tomba! the other day, which is an old RPG slash Adventure game. Because of its adventure format, it didn't focus an awful lot on the RPG elements, but still mainly functioned through quests.
What I liked about the quest system was that the quests were very shortly phrased and the title of the quest indicated what you had to do, rather than some title of a novel that WoW seems to endeavor. Let’s say you were looking through the quest log and the names of your quests were “Kill Demon Dogs” and “Collect Zombie Claws”.
But you weren’t robbed of your quest details, you could in fact talk with multiple NPCs for insight and backstory on each quest, the villagers would even change their texts as you progressed with the quest chains in the area to provide new and useful information.
Blizzard could definitely do better.
L33T15T Oct 9th 2009 2:57PM
The thing that worries me the most about this is that it means we'll get the CoS/ToC 'wait for me to say my things and talk to these people before this encounter begins.'
Those waits are freaking ridiculous.
I'd much rather have text pop up than wait for NPC's to spout off a long line of dialogue. Then, if I don't want to read the text, I can click accept and move on.
But, I do read all the text. It just allows me to proceed at my own pace rather than having the game dictate at what pace I should proceed.
L33T15T Oct 9th 2009 3:13PM
Oh, plus I write for a living, so keeping quest texts makes more jobs for writers which is always a +++++++
ChiBee Oct 9th 2009 3:00PM
I can understand why, as a new player, the amount of text walls vs. the amount of time actually playing really seems overwhelming. You want to test out what you can do, and if you're bored and start skipping starter zone quest text, you might figure all quest text is pointless. (Maybe, in the future, starter quests will have simpler explanations or more compelling stories to 'hook' players in - like how the Goblin and Worgen starting zones will be.) Overall, though, I like WoW because of the story, so if I wasn't going to actually read, I'd be playing some other game.
It makes me kind of sad to hear people complain about reading a couple paragraphs. I mean, clearly, if you don't like that, this is not the game for you. Please (PLEASE!) find some other game to play rather than whine about something that is -not- optional for WoW: Story.
Mopo Oct 9th 2009 4:31PM
If you want a novel, go read one. Why are You whining about people whining about reading? I can care less if there are 5 words or 500, but what does "Thrall wants you to go out and collect 10 Basilisk eyes" have anything to do with progressing THE STORY or lore? WoW has something for everyone; the casual gamer or the hardcore raider, but it is not up to you to tell them how to or even if they should play this game or not.
If someone wants to read every single text in-game, more power to them, but I believe there is more to WoW then reading mindless text and yes most of the quests are generic FedEx or gathering missions. If I wanted to play an actual RPG it would not be an MMO.
crunk Oct 9th 2009 3:27PM
They're missing the point entirely. Now I didn't mind reading quest text in beginning. But it became really boring really quick after the 10th quest.
The problem was, these early quests had tooo much to say about things that I as a new player to the Warcraft lore, had little care for. Quest text was too long, and drawn out, with too much filler. I wanted to get to the point of the quest and why I was being asked to go out and collect 10 bear asses. Not a long drawn out novel.
Later on, when I reached BC content, it was still too long and pointless reading that really took me out of the game, and felt like I was back in Social Studies class.
Add Wrath, which although a lot of the new quests were intriguing and fun to do, you still had to do a lot of reading. That's why addons like Questhelper are so popular. Most players know it's the same old routine in questing. They just want to get through it to gain levels as quickly and painlessly as possible.
"Go here, kill this, collect these, bomb those, kill this dude, use this item to kill that dude..." same old routine mostly with a wall of text that no one cares for unless it's tied in to major lore some how (IE: Wrathgate stuff).
I know there are a ton of people who probably disagree with my feelings on reading every bit of text from a questgiver.. but the times are a changing. Not everyone enjoys a history lesson.. especially in a video game. Some people just want to do what they have to do, and gain a reward from it. I say to Blizzard, "Keep it short and to the point.". That's all. And make it good if it's really important to the entire game (IE: Lichking storyline).
Mopo Oct 9th 2009 3:42PM
Use quest helper and you will never have to read again. Problem solved.
Spritetoggle Oct 9th 2009 3:46PM
I'd definitely have to say I fall under the category of players that rather enjoys reading quests. Even going back through quests on an alt, they all still get read.
In addition, I'm still angry that they did away with NPC flavor text. You want immersion? Bring back service NPC dialogue! An extra click to open a vendor isn't going to kill you.
Spritetoggle Oct 9th 2009 3:50PM
Double post, I know. But along with what I said above... if you get rid of quest text like some players seem to want, is it really even a quest anymore?
A storyline, with "filler" and whatnot is what makes a quest, a quest! Look back at classic fantasy stories and single player games. The protagonist would venture off on, guess what, a quest! There was a direction, a reason behind each individual who put the main character on a given path.
Without that, it's just a boring, lifeless command or demand.
poggg Oct 9th 2009 3:57PM
I don't understand how it would be "more immersive" to get rid of one of the main storytelling methods in the game.
Anyone care to explain?
Hitek Oct 9th 2009 4:02PM
All I'm saying is other options is always a plus in a game the size of WoW. I don't find quest text engaging and I feel that if the developers could find another way of relaying information to users, then others who share my sentiment will still be able to have fun doing quests.
The main thing here that needs to be understood is that this is an opinion, and although some may not agree with it, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has it.
Options are good for those who don't want to read quest text and who enjoy visuals to relay information.
Draelan Oct 9th 2009 4:07PM
I have always enjoyed reading quest text. Perhaps it is simply because I enjoy reading in general. Honestly? Add-ons like Questhelper and Carbonite are one of my pet peeves at times. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people who use them to get through quests they've already done before on a different character, or if they don't bother the rest of the player base because they were too lazy to read the quest. People who can't be bothered to read the quest text, but then ask stupid questions about the lore, WHICH WAS CLEARLY EXPLAINED IN THE TEXT, annoy me. If you want to know what's going on, it's clearly displayed for your perusal, and takes all of 10 seconds to read. Not difficult.
The only thing worse is people who pick up a quest then ask in general chat how to do it when, if they took all of 5 seconds to even read the simple summary at the top, it tells them "Go northwest and kill the GIANT HULKING UNDEAD that stands out like a sore thumb."
Now, I will definitely concede that there are better ways to divulge a story than quest texts. As Kia above pointed out, the difference between the Discs of Norganon text and listening to Brann Bronzebeard speak with the Tribunal of Ages is massive. Listening to Brann is far more engaging and, if you've already seen the event before, you're free to talk to Brann and skip over it. Of course, this sort of thing would not be appropriate everywhere. It's a lot of work put in voice acting, and would be a waste on NPC #723 who wants you to go kill boars that have been rooting around in her garden. But, in the right places, it can add a great level of depth. (I also loved hearing the Lich King voice quests given by him in the DK starter area. That was awesome. )
Other ways to make the quests interactive also help, such as that one quest in Dragonblight where you chase some Snobolds into a canyon, only to run smack into the Magnataur they revere. "Big guy will save us!" indeed. Much better than the NPC saying "There's a magnataur over there. Go kill it."
Phasing has also been a wonderful tool for telling a story. It's got some kinks I'd like to see worked out (such as the inability to help a friend in a different phased area), but it's definitely on the right track.
Overall, I see nothing wrong with the quest texts as they are now. The "problem exists between keyboard and chair" as they say. People just don't have the patience in this world of instant-gratification anymore, and I think it's a shame. But you won't see me complaining if Blizzard wants to spice up how they tell their stories. Those of us who already pay rapt attention will simply benefit all the more. =)
Hatfield Oct 9th 2009 5:03PM
Is there really more of an immersion factor in voice-speak NPCs? So, if you miss something, you're going to have this robotic-like person there tell you the exact same story, with the exact same inflection, all over again? And that gives more immersion? The old Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic RPG was like that, and that was one of the least pleasurable parts of the game to me.
alpha5099 Oct 9th 2009 5:40PM
Show, don't tell. It's how films should work and it's how games should work.
MW Oct 9th 2009 5:42PM
Maybe Blizzard can make everyone happy. For those who want less quest text, have a toggle in the interface so that the quests are presented as "kill 10 bears" and nothing else. For those who like to read the story, have it say "we have too many bears around here and the sheep are being killed. So, please go kill 10 bears." And for those who have problems reading (and there are some with that disability who play I'm sure), have a toggle to have the NPC tell you the quest in his voice.
Avan Oct 9th 2009 5:42PM
Quests, I think, should be more organic.
To fix quest text/life stories:
Instead of setting up the scene ("my wagon was robbed, go get my stuff back"), we should get to see the wagon getting robbed. Bam, right there we know that we should help this NPC. We've already got a basic idea of what they want us to do (either go get their stuff back, kill some robbers, or both). All we now need to know is what and how many, no life stories.
To fix objectives:
I recall reading about a study that shows that people are more likely to go either uphill or downhill to go some where, but never both (like an undulating road or something). Uphill usually represents danger: Got a bad guy somewhere? Stick them at the top of a sloping path; Players will be able to find them naturally. Downhill usually represents which way to go to safety or some coveted item: Stick a lost bag or someone you need to find at the bottom of a sloping path.
Also, using proper lighting can guide the player, too. Doesn't have to necessarily be lighting, textures can also be light/dark: Lighter areas are, obviously, often associated with happy/safe areas, while darker areas are associated with dangerous areas. So, towns and the like (safe spots) should be lighter, while areas with the bad guys should be darker. Simple fetch quests should generally be in well lit areas, while kill quests should be in darker areas. Escort quests should naturally progress from dark areas to light areas. Go beyond basic light/dark, even coloration has meaning. Shades of red/orange imply heat. Blue tones imply coldness. Green, life; yellow, money/gold; pink/purple, arcane.
Then there are techniques involving spaces. Too cramped of an area suggests impending danger or something lurking; bad guys are almost always in enclosed areas. It also plays against players' claustophobia, sometimes making them not want to be there. Adds suspense! Meanwhile, too open of an area has a similar effect, where there's got to be something out there if there is this much empty space. Players generally feel more comfortable in open areas that are not enclosed, but where boundaries are clearly visible.
There are also things where like the amount of vegetation can impact a players decision. Too much? Something hides in them. None to not enough implies death, abandonment, isolation, etc. Same goes with population: Too many, feels too cramped; too little, feels too empty.
Honestly considering all of the above, it's surprising that people would be in Ironforge for long periods of time.
Now obviously, it would be impossible to employ all three techniques for every quest. Heck, just doing any one thing for every quest would prove to be impossible. The point is that there are a lot of ways Blizzard can guide the player to doing something without explicitly saying "go north and kill six snow moose."
Example quests, utilizing one or more of the above technicques:
Tracker Brokenhoof says, "The heavy snows of winter are coming. If you could bring me some pelts from the local snow moose, then I would pay you handsomely. Moose pelt makes a mighty fine blannket." This guy has a cane and bandages wrapped on his leg. He clearly cannot go kill some moose on his own with that bad leg. The quest objective tells us that he wants 6 pelts.
Players can find the moose to the north; It's uphill, which also has some tones of blue and white. There is also snow on the ground and some pine trees around.
Robin the Merchant and her wagon are attacked by bandits, in front of the player. They're not attackable, so they escape unscathed. Robin the Merchant tells the player, "Help me, please! Those bandits robbed my wagon! Just bring back my goods that they stole!" She's crying and stuff. Now, we saw them run away downhill, but they came from the east.
The player can go downhill and give chase, following a trail of dropped goods and finish the quest, or go east and find their hideout (where you can kill some bandits and bring back her loot and stuff!).
Plastic Rat Oct 10th 2009 1:57PM
Sorry, too long. Didn't read. Got bored and wandered off. Find a new way to present your point.
Arashikou Oct 9th 2009 6:17PM
A musing on concurrency:
WotLK has provided us with some truly epic experiences that were showing instead of telling. But I've also had a few examples of what should have been epic experiences cut short by problems with concurrency. By which I mean: it's harder to "show" in a multiplayer world. Quest text is displayed on each user's screen individually, and barring friends egging you to hurry up and do the quest, you have as much time to read it as you like. If something has to happen in-world, you have to deal with the fact that other people can interfere (or that your quest event can interfere with them) in some way.
For instance: I've never personally seen Arthas do his thing in the spirit world of Howling Fjord. Someone else screwed it up when it should have happened to me, and apparently the game won't let you see it twice.
Of course, I say this knowing that Wrath has very much been Blizz's learning experience in this regard, and they've clearly experimented with a lot of ideas along the way. Wrathgate was a cinematic. The Battle for Light's Hope used phasing to gate players through a lobby-event-conclusion structure. The quest that follows that business in the Forgotten Depths used NPCs that can only service a limited number of players at a time. I haven't seen Blizz do it yet, but I would be interested to see if they could somehow play an event on just your computer, such that no one else sees it happening. I don't know which of these is most effective at mitigating the concurrency problem, but I get the feeling Blizz thinks they have it sorted out after trying so many different tactics. If so, Cataclysm should be awesome.
Vogie Oct 9th 2009 7:59PM
They've been getting increasingly better at quests now. The phasing in Icecrown, The Draenei starting zone, Felwood's plants, Archmage Vargoth's Staff in Netherstorm, Stefan Vadu of Zul'Drak. Not only that, but the zones are getting better as well. Zul'Drak is easily my favorite Zone: at least 4 Riviting story/questlines completely independent of one another, 4 flight paths, Zone wide buffs, dedicated grinding areas, and a dozen different styles of questing. Icecrown is next, and probably would be first if they made more use of the Skybreaker/Hammer