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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: The fall surge
by Scott Andrews 
Oct 12th 2009 at 1:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Back in June, I wrote about surviving the summer, when raider interest wanes and many players go AFK for weeks on end. Now that fall is back in full swing, all those players are back. Many guilds find themselves with a renewed roster of raiders clamoring for suddenly limited slots. This week, one reader asks how to handle all the extra bodies.
Scott,
I lead a casual raiding guild. We have 1 25-man a week and about 3 10-mans a week including ToC 10 and Ulduar 10. I don't force anyone to raid. I tell them that they can sign up for whatever they want but if they sign up and don't show up, then they are penalized.
My problem is that since I allow anyone to sign up and I don't have set groups, what do I do when I have more people signed up than I need?
Currently I just say whoever signs up first gets first priority. However, I plan the raids out 3 weeks in advance and some people don't know their schedule while others do. So some people have to wait till a couple days before to sign up so they are always the last to sign up. I don't want to penalize people for real life stuff like that.
I have thought about just getting everyone in a group that wants to go, having all the dps /roll and the top rollers get the spot. I think that this could be unfair for the player who can only come once every couple of weeks and always ends up losing the roll.
I am trying to think of some sort of "DKP" system for raid positions. How can someone "buy" their spot that rewards them for attendance but allows others a chance as well? We don't use any DKP in the guild and we don't intend too. We also don't have enough people for 2 10-man groups in ToC or Ulduar but we have more than we need for one.
Maybe some sort of Suicide Kings would work? Everyone is in a list and everyone who attends drops to the bottom of the list. So people aren't penalized for missing a raid that way?
So what is the best way to allow everyone a chance to go to a raid while being fair to everyone?
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Stephen
Hi, Stephen. This problem is definitely a headache for officers and raid leaders. You need to use a fair system that doesn't gimp your raids. However, it's always better to have too many than too few!
For a casual guild, you don't want to overcomplicate this process. The DKP or Suicide Kings approaches that you suggest are a bit much.
I'm also not a big fan of the "first signed, first slotted" approach. It definitely favors those with flexible schedules, and it gives an unfair advantage to the people who are online when the calendar items go up. Not to mention, this system can be "exploited" to a certain degree by guild members calling/texting/twittering/IM'ing friends when they see the events become available. You can wind up with the same people every time.
It's also an unrealistic system. What are the odds that the first 10 people who sign up will fill out the required roles and collectively have adequate gear and skill to succeed? You'll have to compromise no matter what.
My guild has been having this same problem for our 10s as well, and I'll share the way I've been handling it. It's similar to the rolling approach you suggest.
First, I invite everyone who signed up to the raid and see what we've got. I talk to my officers about the roles we need to fill and which roles have too many players.
We announce which players are guaranteed a slot, usually because they play a tanking or healing role with the right amount of players. If we ever have a large amount of new or undergeared players, we might designate a few veteran raiders for slots as well. Then everyone else rolls for a slot. The lowest rollers sit out that night.
However, anyone who has to sit is guaranteed a slot for the next raid they can run. That allows players with low-flexibility schedules to raid at a bare minimum half of the times they can make, if they somehow go on a cold streak with the dice. And if they really do have such epically lousy rolls, you can always step in and give them a slot anyway.
On a side note, I roll with everyone else. If I lose, I sit out. One of our newer players expressed surprise at this: "You're gonna bench yourself for your own raid?" I'm fortunate in that another officer is happy to lead the raids in my absence. This, to me, is just. If I'm going to ask others to subject themselves to this system, then I shouldn't exempt myself or any other officer from dealing with it.
It does suck leaving things to chance, so we only use this system for farmed content. For hard mode runs, we handpick our raiders, taking into account attendance, gear, experience with a particular fight, communication skills, class balance, etc.
Unfortunately, this surge in attendance that fall brings won't last forever. Finals, winter holidays, or sheer boredom will drive people away eventually. With Patch 3.3 on the horizon, though, it will probably last until beating down Arthas is as ho-hum as Coliseum dailies.
Rolling for slots has worked out great for us so far. If anyone else has come up with a good system now that fall has brought so many raiders back online, share it below!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Erogroth Oct 12th 2009 2:01PM
One more thing to add is you may want to shorten your sign up period to 1 week in advance. It may help those who don't know their schedules.
Gamer am I Oct 12th 2009 1:53PM
We used the same exact system in the last guild I was in: if you sign up and can't go, you are guaranteed a spot in the next raid. It's worked quite well.
theman0920 Oct 12th 2009 1:56PM
such a problem in my guild if all varibles are the same (like gear and dps) why should the other hunter get into raids when i have better attendence it pisses me off
Neirin Oct 12th 2009 2:05PM
I wish my guild were as lucky as this guy's. The majority of my guild is in college right now, so we had our average attendance fall by about half. I suppose I'm part of that problem, but I still see how hard it is on our raids.
Muse Oct 12th 2009 2:13PM
Cool picture. Link to artist, please?
Iwanttobeasleep Oct 12th 2009 2:14PM
Don't schedule raids three weeks in advance, to start! If you like a first-come-first-serve system, try scheduling them about a week in advance, do it on the same day, and don't go by the hour that they sign up for, but the day, so people who sign up that day all have the same priority. That way, you're still rewarding people with the dedication to sign up, but you're not punishing people who don't have access to a computer the moment you post it.
Elionene Oct 12th 2009 2:19PM
I think the 3 weeks in advance might be an issue, as you said, it's hard for everyone to know that far in advance if they can make it or not. In our guild we schedule all of the raids for the month at the beginning of the month so people know what to expect. Then people are free to sign up for a raid up until about 48-72 hours before that raid, when I finalize the team for that night. I don't accept people on first come first serve because there are numerous reason why one person might have been able to sign up before another person, and you end up making concessions anyway to make sure you have the appropriate roles filled.
When making the raid, I figure out who is a given (tanks and healers usually) and then rotate the others based on who has been available for, and who has attended previous raids. It's not a perfect system, and it's more work for me, but it's easier than asking people to show up for a raid they may not attend. I like the idea above about giving credit to people who are available but don't make the team that week when they run others through heroics. That gets others involved that may not raid at all, and that's good for guild morale overall.
Haiko Oct 12th 2009 2:22PM
We use an "EPGP"-ish system, for a very casual guild too (just entered Ulduar10) a system where everyone who signs up get 1 EP (Enroll Point), if you get in you get 1 PP (Presence Point). Like in EPGP, we divide the two giving a percentage.
PP/EP*100 = the percentage of the raids you signed up for that you got in.
This is sort of a priority for the next raid: we do select a good composition, but take the prio into serious account for picking people.
Also, we have a group of Raiders/Veterans. They can apply for that on the forum and have to promise to read the tactics, bring own flasks, etc. and need a minimal amount of gearpoints (2100 on wow-heroes is our current, Ulduar10, treshold). On the calendar-event, we state the number of Veterans and number of non-raiders needed, depending on the goal of the raid (kill a keeper or two? or just kill ignis and razorscale). At 4-6 we first pick the 6 Veterans (taking roles and prio into account) and then pick the other 4 people (again taking roles and prio into account).
The non raider spots are not reserved just for them, we have raiders with lower prio scores than non raiders, so occasionally we have a 4-6 group running in a 3-7 comp or something.
We have a very simple excell spreadsheet set up to keep track of all this.
All in all, even a fresh lvl80 can see Ulduar... Which many of our members like. And the Veterans will help them through with pleasure.
Good Luck!
(p.s.: tanks and healers will have a higher percentage than DPS, ofc... but that doesn't mean that a DPS gets prio over a healer, because setup won't allow it).
Emieforanime Oct 12th 2009 2:30PM
My guild are casual, we raid 3 days a week and in everyone to the raid who can come yet we dont work on chance to try and give people a fair go.
We do use our rules as a helper for this, for instance our lowest rank has a lower chance of coming as to get ranked up from the lowest rank you need to be on our forums and thats where are raid and guild rules are posted, if your not signed up you most likely havent read them.
Our raid rules are taken into considertaion, Like does this person have the add ons we required raiders to have like dbm or vent, was this person late or a no show, coz that lowers their priority to coming.
Then we look at what we are doing that day for progression we try mainly to bring our higher geared member So we get better at the fights and know them well enough to bring along other people. For say the begining of Ulduar we try to bring a mix of people, so the newer raiders to the dungeon can learn of the vets and still progress through it. Our Wed raid day is there mainly for the purpose of giving new members, new level 80's and alts a chance to gear up, get into a raid and get use to us.
This all seems to work pretty well, one of our main problems is we raid at 9pm and some people have a bed time, but we do warn people when they join us :)
Slog Oct 12th 2009 2:54PM
I'm sorry,but raiding 3 days a week is not casual,no matter how much you think so. Example: My guild is casual, sometimes if there is enough ppl on and we are bored, we raid, maybe twice the entire month if that. All spur of the moment. Raiding gets to be a bigger grindfest than leveling imo.
Sinthar Nov 16th 2009 10:19AM
@ Slog
Im afraid your definitions dont match mine. To me 3 raids scheduled a week would be casual. But it all depends on your persepective. In a guild with 15 ppl, then it would be a lot more than casual. But to say a guild like the one im in, where, due to demand, we had to arrange for 3 simutaneous 10 mans, and still had to leave others out, 3 a week would be a trifle. Please note the OP did not say they raided with all their members 3 times a week, but there were 3 raids a week. We are also a casual/raiding guild. In my opinion to be non-casual, then you are Hard core, in which case rules about how many raids you can MISS in a year, etc start coming into play, imo the number of raids scheduled a week, or indeed the ammount you attend, is not the issue. Otherwise by your definition, doing say VoA, Sarth, and Ony would be classed as non casual (thats 3 raids after all), when you can pug them all in about 2 hours total.
Also if lvling, and raiding are 'grinds' to you, wtf are you doing? If you dont like either, then surely wow is NOT the game for you.
tina Oct 12th 2009 2:49PM
We do almost exactly what you described, only I won't roll myself out of my own raid. It's worked reasonably well - I put the list of people with "guaranteed" slots into the raid description field for the next raid, so everyone can see what their chances are. We rarely roll for healing or tanking slots, because we don't have an excessive number of those, but DPS usually has to roll. I sometimes "give out" guaranteed slots for people who go above and beyond their duty - like they want to gear up a DPSer, they get a slot, we lose a tank, so they switch to a tanking toon to keep the raid going - their DPS alt will get guaranteed a slot for the next raid.
We don't formally do a "standby" list, but I make sure people know that we do often lose people to real life things, and we pull people from guild chat into raids to fill in. When we do, I will almost always turn a blind eye to gear level, on the theory that any warm body is better then calling the raid. Standby people get to see new content, sometimes they get huge gear upgrades, and we get to keep going.
Lidija Oct 12th 2009 2:55PM
My guild is in the same situation as Stephen; a few 10-mans per week, and usually 14 - 17 signups for each. If we can't fill a 2nd group with puggers, we rotate the raiders.
This means: if you miss the last few Ulduar-10 raids you have a higher chance of getting into the next Ulduar-10. ToC-10 has its own counter, so if there are too many signups for ToC, we check previous ToC's to make an approval decision. Raid approvals are done 24 hours before raid time.
We hope this system will encourage people to attend Uld for helping gear the lower-geared toons. If there was one overall counter, then people would only want to attend the highest available raid and not waste their turn on a raid where they may not get gear.
So far the system works pretty well, only a few raiders complain about missing spots.
Gimmlette Oct 12th 2009 3:00PM
"On a side note, I roll with everyone else. If I lose, I sit out. One of our newer players expressed surprise at this: "You're gonna bench yourself for your own raid?" I'm fortunate in that another officer is happy to lead the raids in my absence. This, to me, is just. If I'm going to ask others to subject themselves to this system, then I shouldn't exempt myself or any other officer from dealing with it."
This is an excellent point. My guild just attempted a Naxx run. I wish I had the OP's problems. Real life and boredom have taken some of my best raiders at least until the anniversary or until maybe next year. We are casual and a major raid is once a week and then generally ONLY for 3-3.5 hours maximum. For something like Naxx, the raid is stretched over 2 evenings.
Generally, all 10-man raids are by invitation only. I keep a list of who has what gear and who has been where. We're small enough that I can maintain a database. If I'm unsure, I check the armory or ask the player. For this particular run, I had a mix of old and new, including a couple of newly minted 80's. We knew we could carry them.
Day one, I had more people than I had slots. I, very happily, sat out the event even though several people offered their slot. "Guild leader should always go," they said. "No, no I shouldn't," I replied. "I am no better or worse than anyone else and I'll be just as thrilled to get my dailies done as I will be to help you clear the spider wing."
Day two, I was hoping again, not to have to go, but we wound up pulling in one of my friends and still 9-manning the Plague wing. The people along said the raid "felt better" with my presence, but I still maintain I should and need to sit out sometimes.
I have next month's events up by the 27th of the preceding month. Everything is flexible and the same schedule is on the web site. You can sign up either place. With the lack of bodies, people are told we have to be flexible about what we do, but it is frustrating to log on expecting to run an evening of heroics only to find 5 hunters, a DK and a warlock online.
It might be too hard for a larger, more active guild, to maintain a spreadsheet of people who have gone and people who need to go. Those with more hectic schedules seem to like the fact that I know they have not been in a particular instance and will get them in as soon as possible. If the OP has the luxury of veterans and new people, he should find a way, maybe calling one raid "Newcomers Guild to Naxx" or something, that lets those who can't raid as often know they will get in on a raid. That kind of attention to them will also keep them in the guild so the OP will continue to have more people than he has spots.
Birwaba Oct 12th 2009 3:24PM
I don't know how well it works out for extreme casual guilds, but dual spec seems to be very helpful in deciding raid slots. If you are a straight dps class like mages or rogues, then this won't help you very much, but druids, pallys, shams, dks, warriors and priests have the ability to fill those roles for those times when you have 18 people online and gchat is full of "I wish we had another tank or healer"
If you are a hybrid class and all you want to do is DPS, then hopefully your guildies are adult enough to not whine when they get sat because they don't know the fights, or their DPS isn't high enough, or you already have too many of that spec in the raid, or they only show up once every 3 weeks and the loot would be better used by someone else.
And if someone is too geared, there's nothing wrong with telling them to take the night off. As long as your raid can still succeed, it is better to give loot to someone that can use it than to shard it.
If your guildies are worried about getting passed up for raid slots because they want loot they can look for another guild, or if they have the option, choose a different spec. If they are there to enjoy raiding, and you're not giving them enough play time, they can do the same. If they are there for the good of the guild, they should know when to bench themselves.
We're big boys and girls. And even if some of us aren't, there's nothing wrong with expecting us to act like it.
Sorcefire Oct 12th 2009 3:24PM
So...what I see is that we have to develop complicated scheduling and prioritization systems so people can enjoy the content or achieve their goals? When did this stop being a game and turn into a job? Raid lockouts, gear scores, loot managers...fantasy football isn't this difficult!
kmmb Oct 12th 2009 5:49PM
That's the thing. Playing WoW, and especially raiding, is closer to playing on a sports team in terms of commitments than playing a single player game. You can't have a game of football if all the players just decide to show up whenever they want (or not), don't have equipment, etc...
theRaptor Oct 12th 2009 10:59PM
Exactly. Raiding is a GROUP activity not for individuals to "meet their goals". The difference between "hardcore" and "casual" raiding is the difference between playing in an actual league to just playing the occasional pick up game.
Bronwyn Oct 12th 2009 3:27PM
What we generally do is send out a mass invite at raid time- whoever accepts their invites first gets to go, and if we need to switch out for tank/heals we ask for volunteers to sit out. Also if you use DKP or anything for loot distribution, we let people stay on standby and accumulate DKP as well for being there and ready to raid.
Bronwyn Oct 12th 2009 3:35PM
To clarify, we send invites to the RAID to everyone who has signed up on the calendar.