Death to Whirlwind

What's the problem, you're probably thinking, or maybe you're thinking about pennies and kittens, I'm no mind reader. Plus, I'm writing this before you get a chance to read it, so while I'm composing it you're not even thinking about what I'm typing because you won't read it until later and I'm also incapable of prognosticating the future.
Anyway, the meat of the issue is that "causing weapon damage from both melee weapons" phrase. It's why every serious DPS fury warrior has the Glyph of Whirlwind. It's why fury warrior DPS drops when they're in the middle of a Freya or Vezax trash pull and they actually watch their bloody attacks and don't just blithely break CC by spamming the Whirlwind/Cleave buttons like a deranged monkey. It's why they're good to help kill Snobalds on Northrend Beasts and bad on Faction Champions (because Faction Champs take a lot less DPS from AoE) because, frankly, Whirlwind isn't treated like AoE by fury warriors.
Whirlwind is in fact hit every 8 glyphed seconds by every fury warrior. It's used on every boss. It's used on every pull unless specifically told not to use it for CC reasons. The core of the current TG fury warrior rotation is 2 Bloodthirsts and a Whirlwind, with an instant Slam if it procs and a Heroic Strike to bleed off rage or if everything's on cooldown and you need a button to hit. This supposed AoE is not only crippled as AoE (really now, 4 targets in the age of Fan of Knives and unlimited Thunder Clap?) but it's basically never really used as AoE anyway, it's a straight up second instant attack to be used in tandem with Bloodthirst. But Bloodthirst is a pure Attack Power based ability. The weapons you're using really only matter for BT in so far as they contribute rage to use it via increased white damage, and attack power via stats. Whirlwind, on the other hand, is directly improved by weapon damage and it also factors in the increased damage from having two big two handers equipped.
In short, Whirlwind is bad AoE but amazing single target DPS (or, to be fair, amazing up-to-four-target DPS, but that's not something we hear lauded very often) and has become the backbone of fury DPS ever since it was changed to hit with both weapons back in patch 2.3 but what made Whirlwind good in BC makes it too good in Wrath. It wouldn't be so bad if it were merely a weapon damage strike (Cleave is based on weapon damage, as is Slam and fury warriors cast Slam instantly) but the combination of its instant cast nature and the fact that it is the only ability at the disposal of a fury warrior wielding 2 2h weapons that hits with both weapons at once is what makes it a perfect storm here.
By itself, the increased attack power and white damage of a TG fury warrior is balanced out: neither Bloodsurge cast Slams nor Cleaves nor even Heroic Strikes take advantage of the high DPS of the offhand weapon. Fury warrior AP is inherently higher than other melee DPS hybrids but they have damage that bypasses armor entirely or rely more on bleeds or other forms of damage. The higher AP of fury warriors is balanced out by doing purely physical damage on most targets, damage that is mitigated by armor, and reliance on Deep Wounds was modified to keep it in line with this strategy. But by allowing Whirlwind to hit instantly with two big two handers, it becomes a necessary part of a fury warrior's rotation and the only one that really takes advantage of the DPS and top end damage of that offhand weapon. There's a reason the Jawbone was so popular with fury warriors in Naxxramas.
In the end, what I'd like to see is absolutely unlikely to happen. What I'd like is to see Titan's Grip un-nerfed and Whirlwind either converted to an attack power based attack or Whirlwind made a proper form of group AoE damage with no target limit (mobs within the range get hit, period) and a range increase to 10 yards. In return, the cooldown would be increased so that it's not usable as a second instant in rotation with Bloodthirst anymore, and a second attack would be used instead. A fury talent or glyph that made Victory Rush usable every eight seconds or so would allow it to fill the role Whirlwind does now as an instant cast DPS ability to weave into rotation with Bloodthirst, and it's also based on AP so you wouldn't have to worry about weapon damage from two huge beasts. Allow for higher white damage to make rage generation smoother, it's all physical so it's mitigated by armor but doesn't get the double whammy of that second 2h, and if people are bound and determined to get that damage out of Whirlwind every 20 seconds or so (however long the cooldown would be) it would not only not break anything at that point but they'd end up kicking themselves if an actual AoE situation came up and they didn't have it.
There. Now that I'm done dreaming, I'm going to go get that pony and ride it to the Newport Creamery so I can eat an Awful Awful. I miss Awful Awfuls. I probably couldn't handle three like I did when I was a child, but time makes fools of us all.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Talents
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Suzushiro Oct 19th 2009 1:06PM
Ret has to put up with the same thing as well due to divine storm and consecrate. Prot pallies also use AE spells in their single-target rotations. I think part of the reason why we've seen CC become less important in PvE is due to the fact that a lot of specs would be crippled if they couldn't AE.
What's more likely to happen with WW is that they'll remove the target cap and cooldown but make the damage per rage low enough that it's not worth using in a single-target scenario, then give you some other button to push in its place. Similar things might happen to the other specs that utilize AE spells for their single-target rotations.
John Oct 19th 2009 1:10PM
Don't forget the other thing gimping fury: gotta get two 2-handers to do your best.
Ret doesn't need to get 2 (TWO) uber 2-handed weapons while rolling (DKP-ing, EP/GP-ing, whatever) against DKs and Hunters (!) and paladins and other warriors.
Consider the drop rate for 2-h weapons against how many other people in a raid want them.
Evelinda Oct 20th 2009 8:49AM
wow, i agree with that so much... i play prot/arms, and have done so the entire time i've had a warrior (thanks to heirlooms). I REALLY want to try out fury though, but i cant because i simply cant get another decent 2h weapon to drop... boo :/
thebvp Oct 19th 2009 1:16PM
Rob,
You can't escape the fact that damage meters are a factor. It's something that constantly lurks in the back of everyone's minds.
What do fury warriors bring to a raid besides dps? Two melee buffs which are usually already covered. Really, that's about it. Oh, and the ability to offtank, or, in other words, the ability to not be a fury warrior.
The point being is that they don't really have a choice. Other melee dps class/specs are left with plenty of wiggle room on the damage meters (which ARE a factor for dps specs, regardless of what anyone things) to be able to move out of fires, not do incidental aoe which is part of their normal dps rotation, and still be of value to their group. Fury, unfortunately, has to do all of the above just to finish 5th. Something needs to be addressed.
I don't think most (if not all) fury warriors want to be in this position. No one likes being the headache of the raid. They just don't see themselves as having any other choice.
TransformerDude Oct 19th 2009 2:21PM
I agree here that whirlwind may not be the most perfect ability to be a core ability in a main rotation, but I'm hesitant to see it tooled with and become impotent completely in an attempt to extend CD and increase effectiveness.
The bigger problem is warrior buffs and utility as dps, they are a joke and always have been. Don't make them shouts anymore, make them presences. If they are too good for them to be continuous buffs with the current stat on them, then lower them a bit to balance them out. Commanding presence: increases raid health 2000 only one presence can be active at a time. Battle Presence: Increases raid ap (and i think it should have a sp boost too) by 500 only one presence can be active at a time. Demoralizing Presence: lowers enemy armor by 10%, or slows enemy attacks by 5% or what have you. And if this numbers are deemed to be too OP then adjust accordingly.
But there really needs to be some damn utility to warriors. Especially dps wars, if raid has a preference for Greater blessing of might then we got nothing, we could commanding shout for two minutes (no dps is gonna have that glyphed for longer) and we should be Demoralizing when we remember, but not everyone is speced into improved.
Nazgûl Oct 19th 2009 2:35PM
Your argument doesn't make much sense. Of course DPS specs are affected by the meters... the entire goal of any DPS player is to do as much damage as possible while bringing as much utility as possible. You act like this is a bad thing.
Raz Oct 19th 2009 1:27PM
I feel the urge to tell you that your use of the word "prognosticating" made me extremely happy.
On a only-very-vaguely-connected topic, I also feel the urge to inform you that I have been masticating in excess while reading your article.
Dimmak Oct 19th 2009 1:37PM
So, the author is from RI I take it?
In any event, I personally feel it should be turned into a true AOE. Normalize Main Hand + 50% off Hand damage. 1 strike to everything in say 10 yards per pulse. Not sure how long an PBAOE like that should go but they need to make it so you can move while its active. Big spinning top of death!
Enjoy your Awful Awful, I recommend a mint chocolate one with sprinkles.
Candina@WH Oct 19th 2009 1:31PM
Myrdor...
Enhancement Shaman are a Melee DPS Class. Albeit a hybrid class.
The two abilities are similar.
Why would you NOT compare them?
It is not like I am comparing Mortal Strike to Lava Lash or Whirlwind to Chain Lightning (tho both are limited target AoE abilities with cool downs).
As far as having relvance to Fury Warriors - since when do posts on WoW.com stay that focused. You don't think it is relevant, move a long. But don't take the time to post a response that says - Hey, you aren't relevant to the thread. Thats crazy talk ;-)
thebitterfig Oct 19th 2009 4:37PM
the main problem in comparing SS and WW is the percentage of your rotation and damage they are. right now, shaman do roughly as much damage with spells (lightning bolt, earth shock) as they do with physical abilities (stormstrike, lava lash, melee). stormstrike is a much smaller part of a shaman's rotation, not because it is a weaker ability, but because shaman were *DESIGNED* that way. they are designed to cast a lot of standard spells reduced down to instant or near instant cast.
warriors, on the other hand, are designed to use their WW a lot, and use Bloodthirst a lot. however, WW is problematic as it is both a major single-target tool and a gimp AoE. again, this is by design but it is a bad design. blizzard has seen the light w/r/t shaman AoE and is giving them Fire Nova pulsing from any fire totem rather than consuming a special one. a fury warrior AoE is the next move blizzard should make.
Candina@WH Oct 19th 2009 5:53PM
Fig,
You're right. Whirlwind is HUGE for warrior DPS. And it a nasty problem in CC situations [the few that remain in Wrath].
Would a change to whirlwind, or a new ability that is more like Stormstrike be better? A simple two weapon strike + a bleed (similar to the +20% nature damage a shammy gets)?
Make whirlwind more of an AoE (strikes all targets in range [subject to the AoE cap]) with a diluted DPS, and make the two weapon strike the more 'bread and butter' attack?
styopa Oct 19th 2009 1:33PM
"What's the problem, you're probably thinking, or maybe you're thinking about pennies and kittens, I'm no mind reader. Plus, I'm writing this before you get a chance to read it, so while I'm composing it you're not even thinking about what I'm typing because you won't read it until later and I'm also incapable of prognosticating the future."
No, what *I* am thinking is that Rossi's hitting the ganja a little early today.
What. The. Hell?
Verit Oct 19th 2009 2:08PM
I dunno - I have played every class in this game except rogue. My main is an elemental shaman. I found it was easier to reach 100% dps uptime on any melee class (and my hunter) simply because of auto attack. Also it was easy to DPS on my warrior because so many of my abilities were instant cast.
Any delay casting anything on my shaman (be it because of my slow fingers or lag) means a severe drop in dps.
And then the complaint that dps scales with gear on a warrior because the more you hit for the more rage you generate. Hmmm - sounds like mana regen (the better your gear the more your regen will likely be). The only class in this game that has a flat regen rate for their abilities is rogue/druid and both have abilities to modify and change that rate. Anyone who wants to change this simply wants more and more classes to be alike.
Still all that said - I rather have someone who is ok at dps, not standing in fire, comes prepared etc rather than have someone top dps meters all the time.
zappo Oct 19th 2009 5:22PM
Except that rage has a cap of 100. There is just no way you can compare rage to mana. I can sit at 35 rage, then have it suddenly shoot up to 100 and try to burn it off then just suddenly drop to 10. Ever see anyone's mana shoot up and down like that? Then you end up with "endless rage" and blizzard says we can't have that and are constantly tuning warriors based on endgame gear, typically resulting in rage starving people who aren't well geared yet. Mana provides a LOT more breathing room, and it seems like runic power is a good example of blizzard actually getting a mechanic right instead of repeating the craziness of rage.
And yes I've played every class in the game (some multiple times) except for a warlock. Yes I want it to be changed. Not to make things "more alike" as you say, but so that things actually work in a sane way.
Matt Oct 19th 2009 2:32PM
Awful Awfuls are FTW :D
Doorbasher Oct 19th 2009 3:08PM
How about ditching Titan's Grip instead of whirlwind?
Blizz has had it in the game since 3.02 and they've never managed to balance it. They've tried haste penalties, hit penalties, no penalty, and now a flat damage tax. Then "weapon damage" won't be as high, since you'd have two 1Hs instead of two 2Hs, and the weapons will be faster, which will bring the top end down further, and make it easier manage dumping rage without starving yourself, since it won't come int he ginormous chunks you get from a 3.6 2H. Let WW be real AoE since it's damage won't be as high, bump up bloodthirst to compensate for single-target.
zappo Oct 19th 2009 5:23PM
Amen. I'm starting to think that more and more as time goes on.
jbodar Oct 19th 2009 11:57PM
Here's a crazy, not-very-well-thought-out idea:
Instead of removing Fury's signature "flavor" ability -- one that makes Warriors squee with joy -- is there some merit to including a "buff" of some kind with the TG talent that would spread out the Warrior's white rage generation into ticks, say 1 per sec? This could offset the spiky generation that seems to be a key balancing problem. Just spitballin' here.
Anyway, I like the idea of being able to choose when to use my AOE ability and when to use my single-target ability within a rotation, though simply making VR available with a 20 sec CD -- as others suggested --seems a bit boring and lazy. Might as well give Fury a new skill called "Hurty Damage".
GerardthePriest Oct 19th 2009 3:09PM
I agree that warriors need to be updated with a real AoE, and maybe give Fury warriors an ability that hits a single target with both weapons, or similar.
Also, while we're wishing for ponies, a battle stance interrupt would be swell. The whole stance thing is a bummer - instead of limiting abilities by stance, maybe you could limit them by what combination of weapons/shield you have equipped. Make Pummel unusable when you have a shield equipped to avoid tanks having two interrupts, for instance. But in general having abilities that are only available in one stance - when warriors have two DPS stances - is just overly complicated. Arms warriors shouldn't need to drop their rage to Pummel or use Recklessness, and I'm sure Fury warriors can think of an example in the other direction.
dawidek95 Oct 19th 2009 3:40PM
not true this actualy wont get nerfed at all