Officers' Quarters: Partners in crime
by Scott Andrews 
Oct 26th 2009 at 1:00PM
Patch 3.2 brought a welcome change for both raid leaders and game masters: BOP loot no longer binds to a character immediately. We now have a convenient two-hour window to make sure the item goes to the right player. It's a change that saves both time and hassle, and I applaud it.
However, now that items aren't bound as soon as they're looted, I've noticed some shenanigans going on in my guild's partially pugged 25-player ToC runs. Sometimes, when a player wins an item with a roll, a few people who really want that item have been offering the winner gold in exchange for trading the still-unbound item to them.
I've made it clear that we're not running a GDKP raid and that I don't want to hear about any such transactions. It's a slippery slope. Pretty soon you'll have everyone who's eligible for an item rolling on it whether they want it or not, solely in hopes of banking a tidy profit.
It seems this two-hour window has also brought back a classic cheat. Click through to read about it in this week's e-mail!
Hi, Scott.
I have been an Officer with a guild for over a year or so. It's kind of a family atmosphere guild. The GM owners of the guild are husband/wife and we all seem to get along great. We raid and have progressed well for group we ran Weekly 25 Naxx runs before Ulduar came out.
Once the GM's were geared and did not need loot they tired from running weekly Naxx. We switched to Ulduar when it came out. We progressed 10 man content and our 25 dissolved due to inactivity for some time. Now, that we do not have a core 25 we run split guilds 25 group.
Recently, blizzard has changed the loot so it could be passed to others in the raid within a two hour period. So, here is the core issue. We have recently Observed the GM husband/wife double rolling on loot.
Example: 10 man ToC
Loot rules: 1 epic per person on what you are doing at the time of raid, 1 tier token per run (25), open to normal roll per spec, off spec rolls secondary if no one wants.
An item drops, GM husband rolls a 29, DPS Guild Officer rolls a 52.
5 seconds later . . .
GM wife rolls 67.
OK, GM Wife wins, two minutes later Husband is wearing this item on next boss. GM Husband still has loot roll and gets another item from the run. So technically they didn't break the 1 epic per person so to speak.
They were called out by the other guild officer after the raid who lost the roll and the item went to the guild officer who should have technically won.
Now progress to this week. GM Husband is well geared all 245 gear and no need for Triumph tokens. Even states that he will not be rolling on Triumph tokens in earlier raid this week. 25 man Semi-pug ToC raid forms mid-week. Both husband/wife are there and he continues to roll on Triumph tokens.
So back to the same double roll odds again.
I like the guild, but feel this is a major loot Issue as most of our group is unaware of the officers catching the GMs behavior. And I am not sure if this is cheating, or double odds 2 VS 1 does not seem very fair. We are losing officers who refuse to raid within the guild (or with husband/wife) and have lost 2-3 guild members to this issue who are wise enough to watch loot.
Any advice? This was not a issue (that we were aware of ) till the recent loot 2 hour exchange.
Thank you,
Anonymous
Ah, the old double roll -- it's not a new scam, but delayed-binding items allow you to be much sneakier about it. Previously, what you'd do is have both players roll for an item and then the winning roller would "pass" the item to the other player, essentially giving that player two chances at the drop. It's obviously a cheat, since you're giving that person twice the opportunity that anyone else has.
Now that items don't bind right away, you don't even have to be that blatant. You can just accept the item and then tacitly pass it on to your partner. It amazes me that people think they can get away with it, but then, honestly, how many people actually check that every item gets equipped to every player who wins one?
What is most baffling to me about this situation, even beyond the fact that it's your own guild leaders pulling this underhanded con, is that they got called out on it and still weren't shamed into stopping!
Husband/wife teams have a pretty big stigma in the community as it is. This pair isn't helping the situation. Add to that the fact that they're the guild leaders and you've got a great big mess.
I don't blame your players for bailing on this guild. Your leaders are unabashedly selfish jerks and no conversation you could have with them is going to change that. Normally I'd recommend talking to them about it, letting them know that players are catching on and gquitting as a direct result of their scam, and asking them to cut it out. I might even recommend demanding a different loot system that can't be cheated.
But in this case, they've already been caught once. They put on a show of contrition and then just blazed ahead with their scheme regardless. That is the kind of attitude you don't really have a chance against. Even if you successfully lobbied for a different loot system, they'd just find another way to make sure their characters have an unfair advantage. This couple isn't going to change.
It would be one thing if they were just members and you as the officer could put a stop to it. But they are the ultimate authority. So I hate to say this, but the only thing you can do in this situation is to leave the guild.
All that remains is for you to decide whether to leave quietly and let them keep operating that way or to expose them to the guild -- and the server -- with a public post. That depends on how much drama you want to stir up and how many friends you have in the guild that you don't want to see screwed over by them. If it were me, I'd make the post. They deserve the consequences.
Has anyone else seen similar or other scams now that items wait to bind? How did you handle the situation? Tell us below!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
James Oct 26th 2009 1:15PM
It is up to the raid leader to decide the looting rules at the beginning of a raid.
A trusted Master Looter and "aware" raid leader will negate any of these problems.
Bob Oct 26th 2009 2:25PM
The thing is, only in a narrow set of situations is this even a "problem". As long as both players have a legit reason for rolling on the item, then there's no real problem with them trading it back and forth. The problem only comes out when one player rolls on something they don't need just to give the other a better chance.
I'll admit, I run with my wife (an Ele Shaman). I would *never* roll on a piece of caster mail (as a mage), just to increase her odds of winning. On the other hand, we both roll on caster jewelry and if I win, she might be able to convince me that she needs it more than I do. The same is true with things like mounts or really anything else that we both can use and don't already have. As long as that's the case, there really is no problem.
The simple solution to keep it from happening in the cases where you don't want it to and allow it in the cases where it's OK is this: Pay attention to who rolls. If they can't/shouldn't use it, then don't let them roll. If they can and then want to give it up to another player, that's their prerogative.
Iano Oct 26th 2009 2:46PM
/agree bob, only longer and further down the page.
Why can't everyone be this succinct? XD
Clevins Oct 26th 2009 3:13PM
No, Bob, you're still wrong. Say 3 people roll on a caster ring - you, your wife and person C. You don't really need it - it's a sidegrade for you. You roll 90, your wife rolls 80, person C rolls 85. You win, give it to your wife. IN that case person C got screwed if you'd not have rolled except to give your wife an extra show at it.
Loot in a raid needs to benefit the raid. Not just individual toons. The short version of our loot rules is this: Don't be a dick.
Double rolling is being a dick.
Artiefarkel Oct 26th 2009 3:27PM
@Clevins
Bob never said he didn't need the ring. He said that his wife could convince him that she needs it more.
As a married man myself, being convinced to give your wife something might not be so bad. ;-D
Also, he did say, "The problem only comes out when one player rolls on something they don't need just to give the other a better chance." Given that sentance, I don't think he would roll on something that was a sidegrade.
Don't be so harsh, buddy.
Draelan Oct 26th 2009 3:56PM
Still, the same issue arises even if he could use it.
Bob - Rolls on a necklace that's an bit of an upgrade. Perhaps iLevel 230 to iLevel 245. Gets a 90.
Random Player - Rolls on the necklace that's a significant upgrade. Perhaps iLevel 200 to iLevel 245. Gets an 85.
Bob's Wife - Rolls on the necklace that's a significant upgrade. Perhaps iLevel 219 to iLevel 245. Gets an 80.
So, Bob won the roll. However, the necklace is a bigger upgrade for his wife, so he gives it to her. Meanwhile, Random Player gets screwed out of the Necklace, even though it's the biggest upgrade for him, because he assumed Bob won the roll and would be wearing the necklace.
In the raids I go on, if several people roll on something, and the winner decides it's not that big of an upgrade and would benefit the others better, it goes to the SECOND highest roller. That way it's at least still reasonably fair.
In cases where it's just Bob and his Wife rolling on an item, if he wants to pass the item to her, I have no issue with it. But, if there's more than just them rolling on it, this practice is little better than having 2 people roll to give one of them better odds at an item.
Tyrannius Oct 26th 2009 4:02PM
Why was Clevins downrated? Regardless of whether or not the loot is an upgrade or a sidegrade for Bob, Person C still got screwed over in Clevins' scenario.
Fierna Oct 26th 2009 4:03PM
I have to respectfully disagree with Bob. Even though you are not rolling on items your character cannot equip you are still essentially giving some people more chances at an item than others. Would you be comfortable if all the other casters saw what you are doing and started rolling on caster jewelry to pass it to every character but you and your wife? I am a fan of keeping the random roll's clean with each person only having a "1 in X" chance at an item, X being the number of people rolling at the time.
It's not the end of the world of course, but it does sound like it encourages every player to form secret alliances.
Jimbo Oct 27th 2009 1:12PM
I appear to be in a minority, but I disagree with the blog. Husband and wife Players A & B can both use an item and roll on it and Player C rolls too. Player A wins the roll.
It does NOT MATTER whether the loot goes to Player A or Player B, Player C LOST THE ROLL.
Everyone has a 1 in X chance of winning. Player C's chances of winning are still 1 in 3. His win chances did not change. While you may argue that Player A's chances are 2 in 3, that's only valid if you grant that Player B's chance of winning is 0 in 3.
The only way this becomes unfair imo is for some reason you don't count the winner's roll if he passes the item on. But I can't picture why a raid leader that would do that.
thush Oct 26th 2009 1:17PM
New loot rule...items to be given a cheap enchant upon equipping to ensure bind. Paid for by guild bank mats
Thomas Prescott Oct 26th 2009 1:44PM
I really like this idea.
In regards to the article, I'd make the post. What comes around goes around. If you are in a guild that doesn't respect looting rules, you should find yourself a guild that does.
Krisnan Oct 26th 2009 2:34PM
while i agree that this is a good idea there are a few times it will not work such as trinkets and caster off-hands for example. none the less this is a valid idea, i know that in a 25 toc i ran, an off-hand which would have upgraded mine a lot was given to a druid who then secretly sold it to a warlock for 6k.
Hitek Oct 26th 2009 1:17PM
Pfft,
Real pro ninjas do it this way:
Kill final boss. Hit macro which then spams something of this nature:
"Welcome to So&So's Loot House, All items up for sale to anyone willing to pay the best price.
Item 1: Starting Bid - xxxx Gold
Item 2: Starting Bid - xxxx Gold
Item 3: Starting Bid - xxxx Gold
Trophy: Starting Bid - xxxx Gold
Crusader Orb: Starting Bid - xxxx Gold
This will be a silent auction so please keep raid chat to a minimum, whisper offer's to me, best offer gets the item"
Proceed to loot items to yourself and profit.
Come on, every game has bad guys!
seanthehorde Oct 26th 2009 1:57PM
Although I do not condone this kinda of behavior, this is actually pretty smart and sneaky.
Like I said I do not condone this
Noscy Oct 26th 2009 6:16PM
In that case I charge 12k gold per 30minutes for my tanking services.
Raenz Oct 27th 2009 1:05PM
Seen this done, and seems to be considered a legitimate way of making gold amongst serious pvpers (or I just read AJ to much). Personally I dont like it, but you have to admit, its a pretty clever way of making gold.
Hansbo Nov 2nd 2009 3:33PM
How is that clever? You just steal the items and then sell them. It's called handling stolen goods, and, just like stealing, it's a crime.
SeanOr101 Oct 26th 2009 1:19PM
I've been an 1st officer in my guild for going on 3 years. We would never stand for this.
Our GM recently started a relationship with one of our other 1st officers, but I can still say this won't happen with us. We're too open, the GM and officers respect each other too much and drama is not welcome in our guild. This would get called out on our GM-hosted Teamspeak server immediately.
Beli Oct 26th 2009 1:20PM
I haven't seen this used yet in any of my raids... however (i'm ashamed to say) i did do something similar last week... I've been running HH for the pet/mount for the past week on my main (finally got the pet to finish the meta achievement Friday, btw). In the middle of the week, I'm looking for a group for it, and one of my guildies says "i'll tank it for you if you tank it for me" (both of our tanks are alts). So we do that, since it's easier.
Anyways, when i was tanking it on my alt, and he was on his main, the pet drops... everyone in the group rolls for it, and I won. After the run, I traded it to him so he could complete his Meta achievement, since i don't really care about achievements on that toon...
Was it a little shady? Maybe. But at the same time, if he wasn't there i still would have rolled on it, won, and then learned the pet. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, as it's just a holiday pet. I would think vanity items are a little different than gear upgrades.
Hitek Oct 26th 2009 1:25PM
You're horrible. It's people like you that give this game a bad name.