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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Partners in crime
by Scott Andrews 
Oct 26th 2009 at 1:00PM
Patch 3.2 brought a welcome change for both raid leaders and game masters: BOP loot no longer binds to a character immediately. We now have a convenient two-hour window to make sure the item goes to the right player. It's a change that saves both time and hassle, and I applaud it.
However, now that items aren't bound as soon as they're looted, I've noticed some shenanigans going on in my guild's partially pugged 25-player ToC runs. Sometimes, when a player wins an item with a roll, a few people who really want that item have been offering the winner gold in exchange for trading the still-unbound item to them.
I've made it clear that we're not running a GDKP raid and that I don't want to hear about any such transactions. It's a slippery slope. Pretty soon you'll have everyone who's eligible for an item rolling on it whether they want it or not, solely in hopes of banking a tidy profit.
It seems this two-hour window has also brought back a classic cheat. Click through to read about it in this week's e-mail!
Hi, Scott.
I have been an Officer with a guild for over a year or so. It's kind of a family atmosphere guild. The GM owners of the guild are husband/wife and we all seem to get along great. We raid and have progressed well for group we ran Weekly 25 Naxx runs before Ulduar came out.
Once the GM's were geared and did not need loot they tired from running weekly Naxx. We switched to Ulduar when it came out. We progressed 10 man content and our 25 dissolved due to inactivity for some time. Now, that we do not have a core 25 we run split guilds 25 group.
Recently, blizzard has changed the loot so it could be passed to others in the raid within a two hour period. So, here is the core issue. We have recently Observed the GM husband/wife double rolling on loot.
Example: 10 man ToC
Loot rules: 1 epic per person on what you are doing at the time of raid, 1 tier token per run (25), open to normal roll per spec, off spec rolls secondary if no one wants.
An item drops, GM husband rolls a 29, DPS Guild Officer rolls a 52.
5 seconds later . . .
GM wife rolls 67.
OK, GM Wife wins, two minutes later Husband is wearing this item on next boss. GM Husband still has loot roll and gets another item from the run. So technically they didn't break the 1 epic per person so to speak.
They were called out by the other guild officer after the raid who lost the roll and the item went to the guild officer who should have technically won.
Now progress to this week. GM Husband is well geared all 245 gear and no need for Triumph tokens. Even states that he will not be rolling on Triumph tokens in earlier raid this week. 25 man Semi-pug ToC raid forms mid-week. Both husband/wife are there and he continues to roll on Triumph tokens.
So back to the same double roll odds again.
I like the guild, but feel this is a major loot Issue as most of our group is unaware of the officers catching the GMs behavior. And I am not sure if this is cheating, or double odds 2 VS 1 does not seem very fair. We are losing officers who refuse to raid within the guild (or with husband/wife) and have lost 2-3 guild members to this issue who are wise enough to watch loot.
Any advice? This was not a issue (that we were aware of ) till the recent loot 2 hour exchange.
Thank you,
Anonymous
Ah, the old double roll -- it's not a new scam, but delayed-binding items allow you to be much sneakier about it. Previously, what you'd do is have both players roll for an item and then the winning roller would "pass" the item to the other player, essentially giving that player two chances at the drop. It's obviously a cheat, since you're giving that person twice the opportunity that anyone else has.
Now that items don't bind right away, you don't even have to be that blatant. You can just accept the item and then tacitly pass it on to your partner. It amazes me that people think they can get away with it, but then, honestly, how many people actually check that every item gets equipped to every player who wins one?
What is most baffling to me about this situation, even beyond the fact that it's your own guild leaders pulling this underhanded con, is that they got called out on it and still weren't shamed into stopping!
Husband/wife teams have a pretty big stigma in the community as it is. This pair isn't helping the situation. Add to that the fact that they're the guild leaders and you've got a great big mess.
I don't blame your players for bailing on this guild. Your leaders are unabashedly selfish jerks and no conversation you could have with them is going to change that. Normally I'd recommend talking to them about it, letting them know that players are catching on and gquitting as a direct result of their scam, and asking them to cut it out. I might even recommend demanding a different loot system that can't be cheated.
But in this case, they've already been caught once. They put on a show of contrition and then just blazed ahead with their scheme regardless. That is the kind of attitude you don't really have a chance against. Even if you successfully lobbied for a different loot system, they'd just find another way to make sure their characters have an unfair advantage. This couple isn't going to change.
It would be one thing if they were just members and you as the officer could put a stop to it. But they are the ultimate authority. So I hate to say this, but the only thing you can do in this situation is to leave the guild.
All that remains is for you to decide whether to leave quietly and let them keep operating that way or to expose them to the guild -- and the server -- with a public post. That depends on how much drama you want to stir up and how many friends you have in the guild that you don't want to see screwed over by them. If it were me, I'd make the post. They deserve the consequences.
Has anyone else seen similar or other scams now that items wait to bind? How did you handle the situation? Tell us below!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Ezzy Oct 26th 2009 1:35PM
You didn't intend to be "shady": you were being nice to someone. It is not like you planned this ahead of time, or made deals.
As far as the letter, pretty much if you are gonna make a post about it take a few screenshots proving this. Nothing more damning than a screenshot of the rolls and the GL' s gear. Then send an email to guildwatch if your thread gets particularly juicy. :-D
Jafari Oct 26th 2009 2:01PM
I did this on my druid with the time lost proto drake. I've "pass"ed over and over for months, and got tired of it, so I went ahead and rolled. I won the item over the healer who also rolled (who was doing a terrific job and was fun to run with).
Well, I felt bad taking an item I will never ever use (I don't even know if I have purchased an epic flying mount, what with swift flight form and all...?) from a good player so I traded it.
Then I ran CoS again the next day, won the roll again (against the wife of the guy who put the group together), and traded it yet again. I have to stop rolling on it.
ksredsoxfan88 Oct 26th 2009 2:17PM
Do you mean the Bronze Drake?
Sicadastra Oct 26th 2009 2:35PM
Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your point of view, this won't help him anyway. To get credit for the achievement you have to win the roll... traded doesn't count. I know, it just happened to me with the hallowed helm.
wittigr Oct 26th 2009 2:58PM
The pet only requires you to learn it while the helm requires you to win the roll..see blue post here...
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/20/20677858469-regarding-the-sinister-calling-achievement.html
Deadly. Off. Topic. Oct 26th 2009 3:53PM
If you won a roll and then the group breaks up... and you decide after that to trade it, it's your item and you can do whatever you want with it. The group is disbanded and all is good.
The problem arises when people -like that husband and wife couple mentioned earlier - roll with the intent to give them more chances for items over others. The person rolling against the husband should have gotten the item, but the wife who didn't need the item rolled and effectively ninjaed it from someone who had rightfully rolled higher. Just cuz it's no longer bop immediately doesn't justify rolling on something you can't use. It's unfair.
This reminds me of my friend who dual boxes and rolls on TWO alts and then trades the item to the character who won it. (Hell, she rolls on every green item that drops and then even rolls need.) I'd use the Brewfest mount for example (since the horseman mount doesn't drop) where she rolled on both alts and then claimed "I wasn't paying attention".
It's grossly unfair to a person to roll against someone with two chances to win something over your one.
loyheta Oct 26th 2009 5:16PM
Not really, every roll is random just because you won it in that instance does not mean you would have won it in any other instance. I pass on stuff I don't need since the rolls are completely random. I could roll 100's 10 rolls in a row or I could roll 1's doesn't mean if I went back in time I'd roll them again. Pure chance
Tri Oct 26th 2009 5:18PM
Hmm I guess I did something similar during brewfest..
I have a guildie who's collecting mounts (for the 100 mount achivement). In one of our Coren runs, the ram drops, and we all roll on it. I happen to win it, and get achivement and feat of strength for looting the ram (so I'm happy). I wasn't THAT interested in the ram (would have preferred the kodo!) so I gave the ram to my mount collecting guildie - I got achivement and I was happy, and he got the mount and was happy.
But was it unfair to the other guildies in the run? (btw, I hadn't told my guildie I'd give him the ram if I won..)
(cutaia) Oct 26th 2009 1:29PM
I brought this up two months ago, and the overwhelming response to me was that I just group with a lot of douchebags and that the 2-hour loot rule is the best thing since sliced bread:
http://www.wow.com/2009/08/31/the-queue-a-message-from-the-past/
I still think it's a shame that a system to help avoid honest mistakes can be used in a way to help ninja looters be more sneaky.
(cutaia) Oct 26th 2009 1:39PM
And don't forget...this makes it more dangerous for Puggies joining guild runs, too. While your guild can keep track and /gkick someone who gets caught doing this, a Puggie might never be the wiser. For example, people in your guild could purposely roll on gear they already have to pass it to other guildies. By the time the puggie has a chance to check your gear, you can just say you've already donned your winnings. Is a puggie gonna know what everyone else was wearing pre-fight?
Remember...there are unscrupulous guilds as well as unscrupulous people.
Iano Oct 26th 2009 2:37PM
The only thing that I see wrong in this article is one of the group rolling on tokens they do not need. Rolling on Loot you DO NOT NEED- or, rather, that is not an upgrade for you, that is wrong, bad, and cheating.
I would have exactly 0 problems rolling against a pair of toons on something that was an upgrade for all three of us, knowing that if toon B won the roll, toon A would end up with the item. There are still three toons with three legit shots at the item, and if the other two both want toon A to have the item, that's totally their business.
The Problem comes when it drops again- and toon A wants to roll on it AGAIN (as with the trophies in the letter) and this time use his roll to help toon B actually get and keep the item. I would call shenanigans- toon A has the item, or something better than the item- toon A does not have legit claim on that drop- it's just as if a plate healing piece dropped- a druid has no claim on it- it can't do anything for said druid- it'll go in a trash heap- or be given away.
If someone wants to be generous with their chance at a piece of loot, that's fine with me, but they had dang well better not expect some sort of "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" crap- once toon A has the loot, he can't expect to have another chance at it later so he can pass it to toon B.
The other problem I have, though, is the secrecy- people familiar with the science of statistics will understand that as long as the above conditions are met (nobody rolling on stuff they don't actually personally need), their chances of getting loot aren't actually being reduced (those same statisticians will realize that if the item's 'real' winner keeps rolling next time, the chance are indeed getting diluted)- All that taken into account, if you're going to do something like this, for Pete's sake, ASK FIRST. If you're reasonable and folks say no, then you know what kind of crowd you're running with, at least, and you know that this behavior is unacceptable. That's kinda important to know! If they say yes, then it's all out there and rainbows and bunnies and everyone is happy.
Until the next loot issue comes up. XD
-Concerned mostly PuGger.
TL:DR I guess, ONLY roll on loot when it is a legitimate upgrade on the toon you are playing, and all things will work together for your good.
Even in cases where what class the loot is for is nebulous, though that's a whole 'nother box of worms, and this comment is long enough. :)
Lucidien Oct 26th 2009 7:33PM
About what you said about PuG's getting bitten unwittingly by guildies, I was running H ToC (only a 5-man but you must admit, as far as pre-raiding drops go, they can be really nice), I was with two guildies (one a Member, one an officer). The member (a trusted RL friend of mine) was Pally-heals (his off-spec, main is DPS), and the Officer was caster-DPS. A weapon dropped and plate shoulders (tank-spec, both) and my Pally-DPS(off-heals) rolled on them, claiming his off was Tank. I expressed my shock in a pst at his blatant ninja, and he claimed to be annoyed with the PuG's for being "phail-DPS and that tank made us wipe twice, he doesn't deserve it."
After the instance, he insisted I disenchant them for him, and he'd put the proceeds in the guild-bank, which I observed him do (I stalked his Auctions and GBank deposits to be sure). He reasoned; "it's for the guild, and those idiots didn't deserve it", and while he was the reason I'm in that guild in the first place, (a nice progressive raiding one), I still feel it sets a bad precedent. I feel my hands as an enchanter have been sullied by the whole thing. It's wrong people, just wrong!
lukealexander1 Oct 26th 2009 1:30PM
just say "if i catch you doing that again.. then you will get gkicked." even if it loses you 2 members then at least the rest of guild will understand and you wont lose a whole guild
pietrex Oct 26th 2009 1:42PM
How are you going to kick the Guild Master?
Matthew Rossi Oct 26th 2009 1:45PM
How do you Gkick the GM?
Thomas Prescott Oct 26th 2009 1:46PM
You don't gkick the guild master, you get yourself and several others to threaten to quit. Don't let them call the bluff, if they refuse then you should all quit. A gquit will get the point across very clearly that you don't tolerate that type of behaviour.
Sqrly Oct 26th 2009 1:31PM
OMG! What rock have you been laying dead under?
Quote "a few people who really want that item have been offering the winner gold"
This is exactly why they made this change to bop items in the first place. This has always been the case and before the change it involved the holder of the item filing a petition to give the item to the other person.
Blizzard made the change to make things easier on themselvs, not us, how niave.
Terethall Oct 26th 2009 1:54PM
Although poorly written and vitriolic, this post is actually correct (I think. I may be misinterpreting the meaning).
It was common practice, at least in PUGs on my server, for 2nd rollers on items to whisper the top roller an offer of gold to pass the item to them, either via ticket later, or by passing in raidchat before the item was looted. This new system allows the same process to occur without the hassle of sending in a ticket. You can't stop people from selling items.
dawnseven Oct 26th 2009 2:45PM
I'm with Terethall here. The same thing has been going on for some time, but always with Blizzard as the middleman because you had to open a ticket.
I raid with my husband too, so I can see where the allure of the double roll would come in, but still. Depending on your loot rules (which may need to be tweaked) rolls usually go to primary spec first as mentioned by the OP, right? See ... I wouldn't be able to get away with this because I play a holy pally and my husband is a hunter. Nobody would let me roll on AP/Agility mail any more than they'd let him roll on intellect plate. Now the reason I especially wouldn't do this is because the hubby isn't getting my one roll! :D If there's a one epic per run rule I'm not going to risk an upgrade so he can have one. LOL And I know that item I've been hoping to see will drop the moment I did this. Murphy's Law.
Is this a big problem? Are there are a lot of couples who raid, who both run with the same class/spec or role AND who are geared to the point that they aren't looking for anything in the raid they're engaged in? It has to be a small percentage of the WoW playing populace, no?
Cyrus Oct 26th 2009 1:36PM
"It amazes me that people think they can get away with it, but then, honestly, how many people actually check that every item gets equipped to every player who wins one?"
For that matter, why would people be expected to equip items right after they've dropped? Unless we're talking about a big gulf in quality - and if too much of your gear has a big gulf in quality, then you aren't geared enough for the content you're in - an upgrade is rarely a big upgrade until it's enchanted. Several times I've rolled need on an item, but it would have been just single stat points of an upgrade, or no upgrade at all, without enhancement. I don't raid with all the gems and scrolls I could possibly use in my bag just in case I get a certain drop.