Patch 5.4 patch notes
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The latest patch 5.4 newsOfficers' Quarters: Partners in crime
by Scott Andrews 
Oct 26th 2009 at 1:00PM
Patch 3.2 brought a welcome change for both raid leaders and game masters: BOP loot no longer binds to a character immediately. We now have a convenient two-hour window to make sure the item goes to the right player. It's a change that saves both time and hassle, and I applaud it.
However, now that items aren't bound as soon as they're looted, I've noticed some shenanigans going on in my guild's partially pugged 25-player ToC runs. Sometimes, when a player wins an item with a roll, a few people who really want that item have been offering the winner gold in exchange for trading the still-unbound item to them.
I've made it clear that we're not running a GDKP raid and that I don't want to hear about any such transactions. It's a slippery slope. Pretty soon you'll have everyone who's eligible for an item rolling on it whether they want it or not, solely in hopes of banking a tidy profit.
It seems this two-hour window has also brought back a classic cheat. Click through to read about it in this week's e-mail!
Hi, Scott.
I have been an Officer with a guild for over a year or so. It's kind of a family atmosphere guild. The GM owners of the guild are husband/wife and we all seem to get along great. We raid and have progressed well for group we ran Weekly 25 Naxx runs before Ulduar came out.
Once the GM's were geared and did not need loot they tired from running weekly Naxx. We switched to Ulduar when it came out. We progressed 10 man content and our 25 dissolved due to inactivity for some time. Now, that we do not have a core 25 we run split guilds 25 group.
Recently, blizzard has changed the loot so it could be passed to others in the raid within a two hour period. So, here is the core issue. We have recently Observed the GM husband/wife double rolling on loot.
Example: 10 man ToC
Loot rules: 1 epic per person on what you are doing at the time of raid, 1 tier token per run (25), open to normal roll per spec, off spec rolls secondary if no one wants.
An item drops, GM husband rolls a 29, DPS Guild Officer rolls a 52.
5 seconds later . . .
GM wife rolls 67.
OK, GM Wife wins, two minutes later Husband is wearing this item on next boss. GM Husband still has loot roll and gets another item from the run. So technically they didn't break the 1 epic per person so to speak.
They were called out by the other guild officer after the raid who lost the roll and the item went to the guild officer who should have technically won.
Now progress to this week. GM Husband is well geared all 245 gear and no need for Triumph tokens. Even states that he will not be rolling on Triumph tokens in earlier raid this week. 25 man Semi-pug ToC raid forms mid-week. Both husband/wife are there and he continues to roll on Triumph tokens.
So back to the same double roll odds again.
I like the guild, but feel this is a major loot Issue as most of our group is unaware of the officers catching the GMs behavior. And I am not sure if this is cheating, or double odds 2 VS 1 does not seem very fair. We are losing officers who refuse to raid within the guild (or with husband/wife) and have lost 2-3 guild members to this issue who are wise enough to watch loot.
Any advice? This was not a issue (that we were aware of ) till the recent loot 2 hour exchange.
Thank you,
Anonymous
Ah, the old double roll -- it's not a new scam, but delayed-binding items allow you to be much sneakier about it. Previously, what you'd do is have both players roll for an item and then the winning roller would "pass" the item to the other player, essentially giving that player two chances at the drop. It's obviously a cheat, since you're giving that person twice the opportunity that anyone else has.
Now that items don't bind right away, you don't even have to be that blatant. You can just accept the item and then tacitly pass it on to your partner. It amazes me that people think they can get away with it, but then, honestly, how many people actually check that every item gets equipped to every player who wins one?
What is most baffling to me about this situation, even beyond the fact that it's your own guild leaders pulling this underhanded con, is that they got called out on it and still weren't shamed into stopping!
Husband/wife teams have a pretty big stigma in the community as it is. This pair isn't helping the situation. Add to that the fact that they're the guild leaders and you've got a great big mess.
I don't blame your players for bailing on this guild. Your leaders are unabashedly selfish jerks and no conversation you could have with them is going to change that. Normally I'd recommend talking to them about it, letting them know that players are catching on and gquitting as a direct result of their scam, and asking them to cut it out. I might even recommend demanding a different loot system that can't be cheated.
But in this case, they've already been caught once. They put on a show of contrition and then just blazed ahead with their scheme regardless. That is the kind of attitude you don't really have a chance against. Even if you successfully lobbied for a different loot system, they'd just find another way to make sure their characters have an unfair advantage. This couple isn't going to change.
It would be one thing if they were just members and you as the officer could put a stop to it. But they are the ultimate authority. So I hate to say this, but the only thing you can do in this situation is to leave the guild.
All that remains is for you to decide whether to leave quietly and let them keep operating that way or to expose them to the guild -- and the server -- with a public post. That depends on how much drama you want to stir up and how many friends you have in the guild that you don't want to see screwed over by them. If it were me, I'd make the post. They deserve the consequences.
Has anyone else seen similar or other scams now that items wait to bind? How did you handle the situation? Tell us below!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Unknown Oct 26th 2009 1:38PM
why the resistance to GDKP? you clearly have players willing to buy and sell loot, and unless you want to micromanage every drop you reward, there's really no way to prevent this from taking place. It's a slippery slope, but the wheels are already in motion.
in your current arrangement, the only person who "profits" is the person who wins the roll- they get all the gold, and more importantly, they get all the bid whispers, so they can completely control their market (i.e., they could tell an interested buyer that they have higher offers, when they really dont). If you were to run GDKP, then *everyone* wins- the buyer is sure that he pays the lowest price that the raid will allow, and the profits are split evenly among everyone.
GDKP is alot like zero-sum DKP- its a very fair playing field, and a great way to redistribute wealth amongst a stable set of players.
Matthew Rossi Oct 26th 2009 1:49PM
GDKP runs need to be called up front. People going into a PuG need to know they should have farmed some gold before coming if they wanted any loot: many times I've brought an undergeared toon on a PuG because someone needed a healer/decurser, and if I went in and then found out I wouldn't get any gear unless I brought the gold to pay for it (and I rather deliberately run cash poor in WoW, just do enough farming to pay for consumables/enchants/gems for my raiding toons) I'd bail.
Frankly, I wouldn't even bring one of my really geared toons to a GDKP raid. Gold doesn't excite me: I can get it if I want it, and not having lots of it keeps me from blowing it on the AH or on alts. I don't need gold, but I might need a drop: I'm not excited about having to spend a week farming up a couple thousand gold for a PuG when I already have a lot on my plate earning actual DKP.
PeeWee Oct 26th 2009 2:00PM
not to mention how a guild could scam its way to all the loot in a raid by simply bidding gold they don't have, so all items go to guild members.
Kate Oct 26th 2009 5:06PM
GDKP is fine for PuGs, but in a guild/guild alliance situation it's horrible. The raid as a whole cannot progress (or well, progression is harder than it should be) if loot is distributed by who can pay the most money for it. In an extreme situation, you'll end up gearing up one guy's main and (multiple) offspec(s) before gearing up another person's main.
GDKP has its place, but it doesn't belong anywhere near progression raiding.
Capra Oct 26th 2009 1:42PM
Wow! Yeah, I'd leave that guild ASAP but probably not without letting others know exactly why I was leaving.
However, I think a good DKP system can help with this issue. You're spending something you've worked hard to earn (DKP or EPGP points) to get something. I suppose you could still auction away whatever you win but at least it should cut down on the cheating.
I love the idea of throwing a cheap enchant or gem on something immediately on winning it. Good thinking!
JohnH Oct 26th 2009 1:45PM
I had a similar situation happen to me in a VOA25 run, but the circumstances were a little less sketchy. I was one of two warriors in the PUG, I was tanking and the other was dpsing. The DPS warrior legs dropped, and since I'm used to main spec/off spec rolls, I didn't roll on the pants. The warrior had actually whispered me earlier saying they'd pay me to not roll on dps drops, and I wasn't planning on it anyway unless it got to off spec, so I just kind of ignored the comment. However, after the other warrior received their shiny new pants I had a trade window pop up and 100g came my way with a tell of "thanks for not rolling!". I took the gold, which probably wasn't super honest, but the player said they had more than enough to spare and they had already gotten the pants, so I wasn't exactly being paid off, but it still didn't feel quite right.
Kia Oct 26th 2009 1:46PM
See, this actually came up with us just a few days ago. I can't remember if it was in Ulduar or ToC, but regardless...
My girlfriend I are both plate DPS in our guild, so we roll on the same gear when it drops. At some point, she was having insane luck and winning pretty much every eligible roll. Feeling bad for me, she was going to swap me the legs that dropped, but the raid leader snarked at us and I told her to just keep them.
We're fairly new to raiding, and I had no clue this was even an issue. It's kind of irritating to me though, and apparently I'm in the minority. Since we both play the same role, I kind of feel like if it's an eligible roll for her and she won the item fair and square, she should get to do whatever the hell she wants with it. One of us would use it either way, so w/e.
I don't think, say, a priest should be rolling on some plate gear for her bf, but if it's something both of us would use regardless...meh. Apparently I'm the only one that doesn't have an issue with it.
Matthew Rossi Oct 26th 2009 1:58PM
The issue is the people who don't have a handy plate DPS gf to roll on loot for them. My wife and I have in the past both raided as physical DPS, but it's simply unfair for one of us to roll on an item intending to give it to the other. It's called double odds or double dipping because it gives you, effectively, two rolls on any item you want while everyone else only gets one. Why are you the special exemption to the loot rules? Simply being in a relationship with someone else in the raid hardly qualifies you for more chances at gear.
elimeny Oct 26th 2009 2:04PM
It should be noted that this is not just a problem with people who are in romantic relationships. For multi-guild runs, i've seen it happen between fellow guild members, or just people who are good friends. I've also seen it happen specifically to screw someone that two people dislike out of loot. I.E. They don't really need the item, but they can't stand the guy who would win it otherwise. It's very malicious, and the Blizz change may have helped Blizzard a lot, but has made malicious looting much easier.
Dealen Oct 26th 2009 2:04PM
"Since we both play the same role, I kind of feel like if it's an eligible roll for her and she won the item fair and square, she should get to do whatever the hell she wants with it"
If she wants you to have a chance at the loot she could just not roll.
Since it would be unfair if you, your gf and another person rolled on the loot and she won but gave it to you even though you rolled the lowest.
Gingerninja Oct 26th 2009 2:48PM
Its not the same, but back in TBC when my guild first downed Illidan he dropped THE Shield. and Our main tank at the time (I was MT Kara through to first 4 bosses of MH.. but then AFK'ed a month. personal reasons, and he covered all of BT) nearly #### his pants. I still had most of my DKP from MH saved up (all i got was the trash cape i think) and he was BT geared to the hilt. so i could have blown him out the water. everyone bidded stupid high dkp for items as was expected, when it came to our item (master looter purposely waited lol) the other tank bidded his total, which was barely above our minimum bid level, and i didnt bid against him. i let him take the shield with a bid that was a 5th of my total. The way i saw it he tanked BT, he should get first dibs on the such an iconic item. i was almost done with raiding at this point anyway (before sunwell was announced) lots of WTFs in gchat when the winning bid was announced.
We were a team, i did what i thought was best for the guild. he was likely to farm BT more than me. The tank team always looked out for each other with drops, ok dkp planning technically is cheating, but we did it to keep ourselves all geared as a team, except tier, it was a FFA on tier (becos of other bidders)
is justified cheating still cheating? yes, but as we used to place bets in the tank channel on who'd die first. purposely out taunt each other on trash to mess with the healers and generally arse around on farm runs. I think when the job was a joyless as raid tanking in tbc was, you do what you needed to to get by.
swampsquatch Oct 26th 2009 3:19PM
@Matthew Rossi
You seem kinda bitter/hostile about this whole situation. Has this happened to you personally? Kia didn't say that He/She made a pact before the raid with their girlfriend to both roll on every piece of plate DPS loot and hoard it all to themselves and then figure out who gets it later. Kia simply said the girlfriend had lucky rolls and then felt that she should give up a piece of loot to a fellow guildy for the better of the guild (by helping gear out someone else) who just happened to be their significant other.
I once won 2 rolls in one raid and then won a third but said, "Nevermind, I have won 2 pieces already, go ahead and give it to someone who hasn't got loot yet."
Sarabande Oct 27th 2009 8:42AM
@swampsquatch
If I'd been getting a lot of lucky rolls, I'd probably refrain from rolling unless no one else did, if the looting rules allowed for infinite rolls as long as it was an upgrade of the correct type. But what Kia's GF did was handpick who it went to. if she just said "Hey look . . . I've got more than my fair share. I won't roll anymore unless no one wants the item" then it would be fair.
So, while Kia may have been having bad luck with rolls, perhaps other plate wearers did too, but they didn't get the special treatment because they were not dating Kia's GF.
If Kia and his GF were the only ones running the raid then "she should get to do whatever the hell she wants with it. One of us would use it either way, so w/e." would make sense, but if there are other people in the raid involved, then "whatever" isn't acceptable.
elimeny Oct 26th 2009 2:01PM
YES. We ran into this very problem within a week after Blizzard made the change. I posted about it all over the forums asking for input as to whether anyone else had experienced this problem, and I was told by nearly everyone that I obviously just needed to find a new guild. The situation noted by the email you've posted is a lot more obvious - but there are plenty of scenarios where people are waiting until after the raid is over to trade loot - and unless they are checked, nobody notices.
It's sneaky, and the rule is poorly designed. In essence, the loot should only be tradeable with the loot master, IMO. This would certainly solve a lot of problems. The change made by Blizzard put our alliance into a loot situation that single handedly destroyed our loot system and created so much drama, that we have yet to come back from it.
I posted about it on my own blog with the hopes that someone might have any possible solutions, and I posted about it on the forums, and yet no one had any words of wisdom to help us out. There isn't anything we can do to prevent it except kick people out when we catch them "double-rolling" - and the only way we can catch them is to obsessively keep track of who wins what, and then regularly check their gear.
danawhitaker Oct 26th 2009 2:30PM
There's not always a loot master, especially in 5-man runs, or holiday summons like Direbrew or Headless Horseman. And if you have an unscrupulous loot master who's in on it, then there's still going to be a problem. I think it's better that the items are able to be traded for when there are genuine mistakes on rolling. Having to open a ticket and screw around with that is a waste of time on the part of players and Blizzard.
I'm not saying that the behavior should be ignored - but there are circumstances whereby items are traded after the rolls occur that are justified. The only times I've done trades after winning occurred when I felt bad. The first night of Headless Horseman, my friend and I were the only two people who hadn't gotten the squashling. It was the only thing he needed for the meta achievement, and it was my first time doing the holiday. I won the roll by six points, and I felt bad, so I traded him the pet. I'd hope no one would begrudge me that decision. And two summons later, my generosity was rewarded, because another one dropped.
It basically is about the intention, and the subsequent behavior. If you don't go into a situation *planning* on it ("Okay, I don't want the HH mount, so if it drops, I'll roll on it too and give it to you if I win"), and you're fair about who you pass the item to if you decide you don't want it (the next highest roll rather than just someone you're friends with) then there's nothing wrong with it. With Direbrew, we ran into a situation where one of the mounts dropped, and someone rolled and decided they didn't want it, and we made sure it went to the person with the next highest roll, even though they were a fairly new addition to the guild that most people didn't know well.
Kay Oct 26th 2009 2:06PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only loot system that is without question unfair is a loot system that has hidden rules. As long as everything's above the table, then players can choose to support or not support the raid that has those rules with their participation. If trading/selling drops to others is allowed, then say so up front. If you didn't say so up front...there's the problem.
zappo Oct 26th 2009 2:22PM
Honestly, if a topic comes up with "GM and his wife", cut your losses and go.
clundgren Oct 26th 2009 2:37PM
The problem with enchanting something right away, is that sometimes only after you've experimented a bit do you decide that the item isn't really an upgrade. In a fast moving raid, I've rolled on and won items that I later realized didn't fit as well as I thought, and was glad to be able to trade them to someone who needed them more.
The real solution is don't be a loot whore, and don't raid with loot whores. If you are tempted to try something shady, remember that in a few short weeks, months at the most, the new patch/expansion/whatever will drop, and you'll want the new new thing anyway. So being greedy really has no long term benefits, but plenty of long term drawbacks.
talkingmike Oct 26th 2009 2:46PM
Shouldn't you know which items (and corresponding enchants and gems) you need from each and every boss? I know I do, and I'm sure many others do as well.
I don't understand why you would need to experiment with a piece before deciding it wasn't for you...
dawnseven Oct 26th 2009 5:14PM
I don't know about clundgren, but I know I don't. Does memorizing the loot tables make the fights easier? Maybe it's just a hardcore v. casual thing. I don't raid for the loot, I raid to have fun with my guildies. If I get an upgrade great, if I don't I don't. It's not like I'm not going to go back the next week.