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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: Partners in crime
by Scott Andrews 
Oct 26th 2009 at 1:00PM
Patch 3.2 brought a welcome change for both raid leaders and game masters: BOP loot no longer binds to a character immediately. We now have a convenient two-hour window to make sure the item goes to the right player. It's a change that saves both time and hassle, and I applaud it.
However, now that items aren't bound as soon as they're looted, I've noticed some shenanigans going on in my guild's partially pugged 25-player ToC runs. Sometimes, when a player wins an item with a roll, a few people who really want that item have been offering the winner gold in exchange for trading the still-unbound item to them.
I've made it clear that we're not running a GDKP raid and that I don't want to hear about any such transactions. It's a slippery slope. Pretty soon you'll have everyone who's eligible for an item rolling on it whether they want it or not, solely in hopes of banking a tidy profit.
It seems this two-hour window has also brought back a classic cheat. Click through to read about it in this week's e-mail!
Hi, Scott.
I have been an Officer with a guild for over a year or so. It's kind of a family atmosphere guild. The GM owners of the guild are husband/wife and we all seem to get along great. We raid and have progressed well for group we ran Weekly 25 Naxx runs before Ulduar came out.
Once the GM's were geared and did not need loot they tired from running weekly Naxx. We switched to Ulduar when it came out. We progressed 10 man content and our 25 dissolved due to inactivity for some time. Now, that we do not have a core 25 we run split guilds 25 group.
Recently, blizzard has changed the loot so it could be passed to others in the raid within a two hour period. So, here is the core issue. We have recently Observed the GM husband/wife double rolling on loot.
Example: 10 man ToC
Loot rules: 1 epic per person on what you are doing at the time of raid, 1 tier token per run (25), open to normal roll per spec, off spec rolls secondary if no one wants.
An item drops, GM husband rolls a 29, DPS Guild Officer rolls a 52.
5 seconds later . . .
GM wife rolls 67.
OK, GM Wife wins, two minutes later Husband is wearing this item on next boss. GM Husband still has loot roll and gets another item from the run. So technically they didn't break the 1 epic per person so to speak.
They were called out by the other guild officer after the raid who lost the roll and the item went to the guild officer who should have technically won.
Now progress to this week. GM Husband is well geared all 245 gear and no need for Triumph tokens. Even states that he will not be rolling on Triumph tokens in earlier raid this week. 25 man Semi-pug ToC raid forms mid-week. Both husband/wife are there and he continues to roll on Triumph tokens.
So back to the same double roll odds again.
I like the guild, but feel this is a major loot Issue as most of our group is unaware of the officers catching the GMs behavior. And I am not sure if this is cheating, or double odds 2 VS 1 does not seem very fair. We are losing officers who refuse to raid within the guild (or with husband/wife) and have lost 2-3 guild members to this issue who are wise enough to watch loot.
Any advice? This was not a issue (that we were aware of ) till the recent loot 2 hour exchange.
Thank you,
Anonymous
Ah, the old double roll -- it's not a new scam, but delayed-binding items allow you to be much sneakier about it. Previously, what you'd do is have both players roll for an item and then the winning roller would "pass" the item to the other player, essentially giving that player two chances at the drop. It's obviously a cheat, since you're giving that person twice the opportunity that anyone else has.
Now that items don't bind right away, you don't even have to be that blatant. You can just accept the item and then tacitly pass it on to your partner. It amazes me that people think they can get away with it, but then, honestly, how many people actually check that every item gets equipped to every player who wins one?
What is most baffling to me about this situation, even beyond the fact that it's your own guild leaders pulling this underhanded con, is that they got called out on it and still weren't shamed into stopping!
Husband/wife teams have a pretty big stigma in the community as it is. This pair isn't helping the situation. Add to that the fact that they're the guild leaders and you've got a great big mess.
I don't blame your players for bailing on this guild. Your leaders are unabashedly selfish jerks and no conversation you could have with them is going to change that. Normally I'd recommend talking to them about it, letting them know that players are catching on and gquitting as a direct result of their scam, and asking them to cut it out. I might even recommend demanding a different loot system that can't be cheated.
But in this case, they've already been caught once. They put on a show of contrition and then just blazed ahead with their scheme regardless. That is the kind of attitude you don't really have a chance against. Even if you successfully lobbied for a different loot system, they'd just find another way to make sure their characters have an unfair advantage. This couple isn't going to change.
It would be one thing if they were just members and you as the officer could put a stop to it. But they are the ultimate authority. So I hate to say this, but the only thing you can do in this situation is to leave the guild.
All that remains is for you to decide whether to leave quietly and let them keep operating that way or to expose them to the guild -- and the server -- with a public post. That depends on how much drama you want to stir up and how many friends you have in the guild that you don't want to see screwed over by them. If it were me, I'd make the post. They deserve the consequences.
Has anyone else seen similar or other scams now that items wait to bind? How did you handle the situation? Tell us below!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 5)
Yrmes Oct 26th 2009 10:47PM
I'm always surprised by how much trouble is involved with loot rules. Perhaps I'm running with outstanding people, because we have very simple rules and never have any real trouble.
Our raids have always had the same master looter scenario, each person has one main spec roll until everyone else of their item type has won their main spec roll, and everyone has an unlimited amount of off spec rolls should the item go to off spec. Of course we also have to watch out for the mage rolling offspec on caster shoulders.
Now, is that fair to those with only one spec? Maybe not as much, but we're always willing to listen if they want to explain something like haste versus crit being the difference between offspecs. Hasn't happened yet. And I think to make up for this we also don't tend to have alot of classes with only one spec. Infact, aside from the times we find a warlock during pugging a raid, we tend to run with only one person in this scenario. Me, the mage. And I'm still getting geared up fairly quickly even when we pug alot of ranged casters.
The entire point of this is to leave loot up to RNG and focus on gearing for main spec. Have people traded items afterwards to others for money or out of friendship/guilt? Yes, but they also lost their main spec roll for a time. The biggest benefit to this over dkp is that we don't require anyone to raid with us regularly to still be eligible to gear up, and I've always hated the idea of forcing casual players to raid regularly just so they can continue to raid in the future. We pug alot, our core group is under 10 and we lack raid healers. We've had some very happy pugs who go away with tons of items because they were the only one in their main spec.
But the system isn't without flaws, we've had really terrible pugs that wipe the raid repeatedly. They still get loot, which is why we're a little kick happy when someone is obviously a problem. Healing the main tank and not the raid when you were assigned to the raid? Well guess what, the mage just died again after sitting at half health for most the fight. You're gone after the loot roll, and before we even think about the next boss. I think that I've become our measurement for raid heals, I'm rarely dying to anything but raidwide damage, and if our tank healing pally has to toss me heals through the entire fight, we have a problem with the pugged raid healers.
Infact, in the year I've been running with these people I've only seen our master looter be unfair once, on a bad pugged hunter. Ok, sure, the guy was pulling the least dps the entire time, wasn't focusing on the mobs he was assigned to, and managed to pull aggro twice during the initial Onyxia pull and position wiping half the raid. Does that mean he didn't deserve what he rolled for a won? I didn't think so, neither did the pugs, but sadly the majority vote of my guild did. Had there been multiple bosses I'm sure we would have kicked him after he won his loot, and replaced.
So the system does have flaws, but it still seems alot simpler and more civil than most these other systems I've been hearing about. We focus on getting people geared in the hopes that they'll run with us again. We're about content, not epics. And we've educated more pugs on proper running with groups than we've kicked, provided they listen when the raid leader is telling them yet again "Focus on healing the raid, not the tank. You're assigned to raid heals." Four wipes to Hodir because one pug won't listen is pretty patient.
Adam Oct 26th 2009 11:34PM
How about this for a solution.
Hypothetical rolling situation:
Players 1-5 roll on an item. Player1 wins item and wants to trade it to Player2. Players 3,4,5 then get a window prompting them to accept or deny the trade, and majority vote wins?
Sure players could deny it out of spite, but then the real intended purpose of the trading of BOP loot is if someone else got it by accident. In that case, players should recognize the rightful owner of the BOP and allow the trade accordingly. If they don't, then place a GM ticket.
Iratio Oct 27th 2009 12:38AM
Holy QQ Batman!
Lets see, so hubby is well geared enough he isn't getting any loot out of the raid, but is showing up and raiding...
The wife can use some upgrades, and has better odds of getting them.
So when hubby wins his epic item or token that he HAS EARNED, the raid benefits since someone who needs the upgrade is getting it.
Poor everyone who doesn't gear up faster than the wife, life is just so damned unfair.
QQ
Aelwythe Oct 27th 2009 6:40AM
I'm genuinely shocked by the amount of people defending this sort of cheating, I always assumed it was a tiny minority who couldn't grasp concepts like fairness and general good manners but it seems there are quite a few.
Makes me prouder of my guild, too, since I ran it with my boyfriend as officer for 2 years and would never have even considered something like this.
Tertius Oct 27th 2009 8:00AM
Regardless of the situation this one question needs to be answered and understood by the players in the run you are in: What is the function of a “roll” in this raid?
Options:
1. The right for an equal chance to use that item on your toon.
2. The right for an equal chance to assign the item to the person of your choice.
3. The right for an equal chance to sell the item to anyone making you an offer after the item has been allocated.
Should you agree that a roll made on a specific item gives you the right to use that item yourself, and yourself only, then option one applies to you and those running with you. Relationships are independent from rolling.
Should you believe that rolling on an item grants you the right to be your own one-person-version of a loot council, and the power to pass an item off to whoever you wish, including yourself - then option two is for you.
Should you join raids to make money from being an opportunist option three is for you.
As an extra note for options two and three: If you like these then every single person in the raid should be allowed the opportunity to roll on every item, regardless of item type or usability. I also hope the people you are running with are wise enough to appreciate this and share the same ethics you have. Else, comfort yourself with the knowledge that it’s just a game – and who needs ethics in a game?
I’d have to say that there is probably more options possible for what a “roll” represents, but the few listed above cover the bulk of the issues raised so far.
Work out what rights making a “roll” gives, agree upon this with your fellow raiders, and you won’t have any problems with what happens to loot.
Karatheya Oct 27th 2009 12:39PM
I didn't raise much of an alarm when I wrote about this back at the end of June:
http://blog.cold-comfort.org/loot-collusion-raids-32/
But this type of abuse was the first thing that came to mind when I heard about this new feature in 3.2.
Perhaps I'm just skeptical about human nature. :(
Abyddon Oct 28th 2009 3:28AM
This conduct is despicable in any context, and only made worse by the fact that it is happening in a guild setting. I would feel obligated to let my fellow guild members know that this is happening in their guild. I would also feel obligated to gather some manner of evidence and expose this behavior to the world at large. In the end I would be unable to stay with this guild.
Your guild is your team. You need your team to see content and progress. When there are some individuals putting themselves and their closest friends above the good of the team, you have a problem which will eventually eat away at your guild and destroy any chance to progress through the game.
There is no excuse for this behavior.
Priestess Oct 29th 2009 3:25AM
Is it possible that this all boils down to intent? I'm not saying it does, but is that possible? If your intent is to help others, and others are not offended by that, is most of this an ok thing? If you intend to steal (etc), and others are offended that there are ulterior motives, does that make it bad?
Eddy Nov 2nd 2009 1:31PM
I wonder about this and enchanting. I know my girlfriend and I run heroics together occasionally and we just greed stuff- the blues no one wants and such- and then I give my wins to her the same way I give her all my greens to disenchant. I know those should really be divided amongst the group or whatever- but the rules for that have really never been very clear. This has never felt shady to me, because I feel its exactly the same reason we both roll on greens. They never go to the auction house or anything, just into our two person guild bank for our own enchants.
blizzardsprules Nov 2nd 2009 3:29PM
@Jimbo
I have Swift Zulian Tiger, my friend and you are in a raid in ZG, Swift Zulian Tiger drops, you roll a 99, my friend rolls a 2, i intervene for my friend and roll a 100, i get the Tiger, i pass to my friend, dw, it was fair, you lost the roll
Mieu Dec 7th 2009 4:33PM
Actually, going up against a tag-team like this benefitted me in the end. I missed the guild clear of ToC25 this week, but I needed some more badges so I tagged along with a semi-decent PuG as my offspec (main spec Resto, offspec Moonkin). I don't need trophies for either spec...so I was pretty much only hoping for some badges or off-set caster items (fat chance!).
So the Trophies are dropping, and someone openly advertised that they'd pay someone 1.5k for a Trophy that dropped in a PuG raid. No one took the bait (for that price? pff...) but finally his brother won a Trophy that dropped off Twin Valkyrs and handed it to him. Whatevs!
We down Anub'arak and Reign of the Unliving drops. Mr. Moneybags' brother wins the roll, and I was second in line. Guess who it defaulted to thanks to the 'one loot per run' rule ;].