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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsPatch 3.3 PTR: Ghostcrawler explains Paladin changes
by Zach Yonzon 
Oct 28th 2009 at 7:00AM
Ghostcrawler said that he didn't "want to promise (they) won't change the spell for 3.3," but that players also shouldn't "worry too much on the Lay on Hands change at this point" since it didn't make it to the latest PTR build. He explains in the forums that Paladins are no longer just a support class (as they were for quite a long time), but that all the abilities over time have contributed to making the class feel like a "one-man army" that is able to play offensively, defensively, and essentially take on more challenges without having to change stances, forms, or even specs. In a rather snippy response to a troll crying (with My Little Pony blanket in hand) in the forums, Ghostcrawler simply said, "Dear OP, Bye. Hugs, GC."
Discussing the Sacred Shield change as soon as we got wind of it, I argued to the WoW.com team that it was a Retribution PvP nerf more than anything, and a push for Holy to use it more in its focused healing kit. Although it does hurt Paladin tanks, Ghostcrawler states that Blizzard's "overall goal is to make Ret less tanky." Guess what? Retribution only really "tanks" in PvP, where the repeated nerfs to the spec's burst has altered its playstyle to become one about survivability. With the nerf to Sacred Shield and the planned nerf to Lay on Hands, that survivability diminishes massively.
With retribution burst nerfed to the proverbial ground, and survivability seemingly about to fall on its face, there's still no sign of the much asked for PvP utility to compensate for the removal of burst (Paladins never got out of the bargaining stage, apparently). It had gotten to the point that protection had become a much more viable, fun, and admittedly OP spec to PvP with, necessitating some nerfs to the protection tree which continue with Patch 3.3. This includes the possible nerf to Lay on Hands (put down those pitchforks, people, the nerf isn't even live on the PTR yet) which would be, to put it bluntly, stinky and messy as Murloc poop.
The good news is that, again, this is still just the PTR. Things can still change, and this is why it's being tested. The hope is that Lay on Hands will come out of it unscathed, but again, Ghostcrawler didn't promise anything (no more promises from the crab!). If I were to venture a guess, the iconic spell will likely still get nerfed to a degree. Stay tuned to the PTR and WoW.com, and hold on to your pink undies.
Patch 3.3 is the last major patch of Wrath of the Lich King. With the new Icecrown Citadel 5-man dungeons and 10/25-man raid arriving soon, patch 3.3 will deal the final blow to the Arthas. WoW.com's Guide to Patch 3.3 will keep you updated with all the latest patch news.Filed under: Paladin, Patches, Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 17)
Snug Oct 28th 2009 8:10AM
From the same Evil Patch Notes, with respect to the shammy changes that went up a couple days ago:
"Reincarnation will now only have a cooldown of 30 minutes, untalented. Reagent cost doubled. "
Harmeister Oct 28th 2009 8:44AM
I can see them running up to a fallen comrade in battle and blessing them, i.e. Lay on Hands (you help other people). Can you see them in the middle of battle taking both their hands and placing them on their head to give themselves a personal blessing? That'd be kinda silly, wouldn't nt?
xzor Oct 28th 2009 9:12AM
i just noticed...this was included in the 'evil patch notes" too...
Hunters
* A simple check mechanic has been implemented which will prevent Hunters from rolling on items that are more optimal for another class in the party, when using the group loot system.
as crazy as it sounds...this IS the new PuG need before greed system.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Oct 28th 2009 9:23AM
Intended to help out others? So why if this was intended as such did they NOT do this in vanilla wow. This just screams of bullshit to me.
A lot of the times that lay on hands has helped me out when a healer is in a bind and we need a quick heal in a run or raid. You don't always have the benefit of having more than one pally in a run.
If this is done because of PVP bullshit, why don't they just make it NOT castable in PVP period.
James Oct 28th 2009 11:20AM
Lay on Hands is not castable in Arenas Deadly, anything with a cooldown more then 10 minutes is locked out of being cast/used. I would place the Lay on Hands nerf (if it happens) more on Ardent Defender then anything else
Reps Oct 28th 2009 1:33PM
If you read one line down from that...
"New Form: Bear Form and Dire Bear Form! This new ability should help the Paladin tank in five, ten and twenty player-capped dungeons."
???
Neofox Dec 2nd 2009 4:59AM
@xzor
Haha, great job pointing that out man! I remember when they announced that April fools change, and I remember everyone talking and laughing about it in Goldshire (I played a human pally back then, as Horde had no pallies). It's ridiculous how much Blizzard's way of thinking has changed. They seriously need to look back at that April fools post.
@ Reps
Wow dude.... I don't think you read what those patch notes really were (it said right on top of the wowwiki article...)... >_>
....
Buman Oct 28th 2009 7:08AM
PvP ruining PvE? Yup.
Sean Oct 28th 2009 7:17AM
Blizzard just needs to sit down and make class spells all act completely differently whether they're used in PvP or PvE. That way you can nerf all you want in PvP and PvE won't be touched.
I actually like taking away LoH in a PvP situation. It's essentially a free extra life, almost an I Win button. However, in PvE it changes into a raid saving ability which needs to stay. Either way it makes me glad I don't play a paladin. I play an Elemental Shaman, and we've always blown chunks in PvP!
Markainion Oct 28th 2009 9:06AM
To: Sean
Blizzard could simply give LOH on yourself as part Prot Paladin talent. So it would not hurt Paladin Tanking but only hurt Retribution Paladins and Holy Paladins survivability in PVP, which is usually overpowered in Battlegrounds and world PVP.
The funny thing LOH is a prime example how hybrids can so easily become OP, because it just too easy to give a class a ability for a specific role, without thinking about how the ability will affect the classes other roles.
mediumsizedrob Oct 28th 2009 9:17AM
The problem with making spells act differently in PVP and PVE is that you can't really do it for heals. For damage and CC the client/server can tell if you're targeting another player or a mob. For heals though, you're always targeting an ally who is a player whether you happen to be involved in PVP or PVE at the time. There's no real cut and dried way for the game to tell what kind of combat you're engaging in.
I agree though, most damage and CC abilities should act differently. I'm just not sure how they'd make it work on something like LoH.
Killchrono Oct 28th 2009 9:20AM
@Markainion
That's actually what I was thinking. If worst comes to worst and the change goes through, they could add an effect to an existing prot talent (I wouldn't say it's worthy of it's own new talent) to make it self-targetable. We get PvP balance and prot gets to keep one of our best PvE savers!
Muse Oct 28th 2009 9:35AM
Looking on the bright side: At least it's not a hotfix this time.
Skonged Oct 28th 2009 9:48AM
"I actually like taking away LoH in a PvP situation. It's essentially a free extra life, almost an I Win button. "
It's only usable every 20 minutes. Every class has an OS button only usable every 20 minutes. You want an I win button look at mages mirror image. Yeah that's an I win button. Basically once a BG
Valcore Oct 28th 2009 10:10AM
@Markanian
"Blizzard could simply give LOH on yourself as part Prot Paladin talent. So it would not hurt Paladin Tanking but only hurt Retribution Paladins and Holy Paladins survivability in PVP"
The only part of the above statement that I disagree with is the ONLY. You're kidding yourself if you think this doesn't hurt PvE holy Paladins. I can't even count the number of times where **** happens, I'm about to die and the tanks at 30%....quick LoH on self while BoL is up on tank and Voila! Saved Attempt. It's the OS button in our healing bag of tricks. I'm sure we'll get on without it, but all this PvP balancing affecting PvE is driving me nuts.
iznogood Oct 28th 2009 10:29AM
PvP != PvE granted
My opinion is that devs should simply remove all the PvP talents or effects in the PvE trees and put them in a different panel.
So if you are flagged as PvP those talents are activated.
Plain and simple.
thebitterfig Oct 28th 2009 11:10AM
Let's face it: that 100% heal is bullcrap in wintergrasp or BGs. It really is. Just be honest about how much it sucks to have the paladin you and a friend have been beating on first bubble and top up, then LoH once you get them down again.
I've got a better nerf for you though: LoH will now heal only 25% of your max health when cast on yourself.
WOW! That allows prot to get a useful HP boost sometimes (i know i love love love my enraged regeneration on my warrior) where you can't stop and cast a heal with a cast time. It allows holy paladins to use LoH as a mini-innervate to restore lost mana. It doesn't give an I-WIN button to a paladin in PvP.
Dylan Oct 28th 2009 11:12AM
@Skonged
For starters, there's a difference between an OS button and an I WIN button, if we're going to be using those terms. I'm not sure what you meant, but MI sure isn't either, MI is on a 3 min CD. If you were talking about a frost mage's Cold Snap, however, which is on an 8 min CD (6 w/ talents), this is more of an OS button, but seriously, I don't think another elemental (~2min CD), cone of cold (8secCD?), frost nova (20sec CD [lolhandoffreedom/clense]), and lolblock (5minCD [yay, have melee gather around to play the minigame, who gets the kill on the mage]) is anywhere close to LoH.
*the above CDs were all with talents btw, not that it matters
The problem, is paladins ARE a "one-man army"; a geared paladin can pretty much demolish anything utilizing three or four buttons, take a ton of people to kill (art of war, lolprotholy, holy in general), bubble (free life), LoH (another, free life). And you can have one player pretty much just dismantle an entire team, or at least keep them at bay, granted, this is in BGs; in Arena it's a tad different, but in arena WAY too many people use this prot/holy monstrosity spec and they're effing impossible to kill. I'm not entirely sure what this spec relies on, but it looks like the PTR changes will hurt this spec. No other tanking class is this powerful in PvP (ok, maybe prot warriors with spell reflect, but I suppose the lack of self-healing makes evens it out a tad), but I've never really seen a DK or Druid tank in BGs do much damage, just take a ton.
In my opinion paladin tanking could use some nerfs, but that's an entirely different issue. My major concerns are pally tanks take very little physical damage, put out flawless aoe threat, and hold superb single-target threat; why roll any other tank? Warriors often have trouble with aoe threat, DKs take a ton of physical damage without block, and I'm sure druids have a drawback, but to be honest I've very little knowledge of how druid tanks function outside of how they gear.
@Valcore
Heal yourself, then LoH the tank if needed. I really don't see the problem, should that aforementioned change go through. How many encounters would you be taking that much damage without the damage being avoidable?
I think the LoH change would be nice just to have everyone who uses their pally to be a one-man army completely freak out. "WHAT?! HELP OTHER PEOPLE?!11" Though I have seen, on many occasions, a wipe being avoided because the pally tank LoH'd themselves. Honestly, I think a LoH change would bee much too drastic, there are plenty of other problems with pallies in PvP: holy damage going through armor, holy resistance not existing, ridiculous white damage in ret, prot/holy, healers being ridiculously, no, damn near impossible to kill (I'm looking at you druids).
At this point I'm ranting, I know. I apologize. I encourage and responses. *put up flame shield*
Pyrostriker Oct 28th 2009 11:33AM
@ Skonged
Mirror Image is like LOH? Wow you really dont know anything. First off, a its on a 3 min cooldown. Every class DOESNT have a 20 min CD. Mirror image isnt even as useful as it should be because A. Mods target them out making them worthless. B. They only cast weak frostbolts.
Take your trolling somewhere else or at least learn the game.
EZ Oct 28th 2009 2:52PM
@ mediumsizedrob
well if they implemented a system where spells are different in pvp and pve, then I assume it would only apply to offensive/defensive cooldowns, and not to overall dmg/healing output.
TBH, it would probably be a 'zone check' and make abilities work different in BG's & arenas. As for world-pvp, well OP sh*t happens in world pvp, and that's just how it is. (which is good)