Breakfast Topic: The ninja problem
by Mike Schramm 
Oct 31st 2009 at 8:00AM
Obviously, over on Guildwatch, we've been covering people shouting out names and guilds on the forums for a while, but as we've also reported a few times over there, that barely helps -- even if people do remember a ninja on their server, one name change later and they're gone. A few guildleaders over on Jubei'thos have tried putting a site together to track known ninjas on the server, but even that has issues; it's tough to avoid false positives, even if you do require screenshots.
But surely there must be a solution, so let's put our heads together: a debuff? Something like the group vote-kicking system that's coming in patch 3.3? If Blizzard wanted to really go for fair, they could just take the Need-before-Greed system and turn it into straight Need: if an item matches your class and spec, you get a roll (with items everyone can use giving everyone a roll), and the best roll always wins. You can turn it off (for a Master Looter-style raid), but for PuGs, why even bother with a Need/Greed difference? What do you think?
Filed under: Items, Breakfast Topics, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Making money
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Demgar Oct 31st 2009 8:05AM
They are making you have to match your spec/armour class in the new roll system. Read the patch notes!
Demgar Oct 31st 2009 8:09AM
In fact, here you go:
Need Before Greed Updated
Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be unable to roll on spellpower items, and classes are limited to their dominant armor type (for example, plate for paladins). All items will still be available via greed rolls should no member be able to use the item as well as the new disenchant option will be available for all parties.
Also, try this: http://www.wow.com/2009/10/30/drama-mamas-reading-is-hard/
Groth Oct 31st 2009 8:15AM
Notice how he's linked the patch notes? He seems to be making the point that the changes might not go far enough, not that there aren't any changes.
tim Oct 31st 2009 8:17AM
@Demgar
I can only hope that this is a brilliant play on the "Reading is Hard" article.
Groth Oct 31st 2009 8:18AM
Oh and the disenchant option won't be available to all parties, only ones with an enchanter of suitably high level to DE it. Without their permission/consent. Because after all, enchanters are normally mean and won't DE for PUGs going on the comments from http://www.wow.com/2009/10/28/disenchanting-in-dungeons-in-patch-3-3/ (though I rather like the idea of cheap shards).
Demgar Oct 31st 2009 12:02PM
The OP says
"But surely there must be a solution, so let's put our heads together.. If Blizzard wanted to really go for fair, they could just take the Need-before-Greed system and turn it into straight Need: if an item matches your class and spec, you get a roll"
Suggesting that Blizzard implement something that they have, in fact, announced that they are going to implement. Wow! Brilliant idea OP. The patch notes state that you will only get a Need roll, if you can use the item. IE: spellpower plate is only Needable by paladins.
@ Groth - He was pining for the exact changes announced.
@ Tim - Backatcha
n1nesp1ne Oct 31st 2009 11:10AM
@ Groth
They are doing the disenchant thing because you can't trade with people from other servers, making DE not a possibility without the new system.
Bronwyn Oct 31st 2009 12:50PM
"Suggesting that Blizzard implement something that they have, in fact, announced that they are going to implement. Wow! Brilliant idea OP. The patch notes state that you will only get a Need roll, if you can use the item. IE: spellpower plate is only Needable by paladins."
In fact what I think he is suggesting is to take the "greed" option out of the picture completely so that you roll on something if you can use it, otherwise you don't get the option to roll. This way there would never be confusion/ninja'ing from saying "Everyone roll greed on a mount" and having one person roll need.
Wyred Oct 31st 2009 1:53PM
Personally I think master looter should be turned off for certain rolls, eg rare mounts. Far too often the drop that persuades people to turn ninja are these extremely rare drops that people may never see again. Masterlooter is only really applicable to actual *gear* loot, where someone may have had a piece already, it might be offspec, or whatever your loot rules. Rare mounts however, have no need for this looting system and it gets abused with no recourse and low probability of seeing it again. So for these certain pieces of loot I think it should just be a straight need/pass even if ML has been set for the raid. Everyone always gets to roll or pass, just as it should be.
LAWLoCopT3RSaUc3333 Oct 31st 2009 5:00PM
BLOOD PALADINS NEED A BUFF IN THE NEXT PATCH, ALSO DISC MAGES NEED BUFFING!
tim Oct 31st 2009 5:14PM
No, Demgar... no he wasn't. There's a number of differences between what Mike wrote and what Blizzard is implementing, including (but not limited to) the importance of a SPEC.
citixensnips Oct 31st 2009 8:43PM
I think Blizz should have a system where if every other person in the raid reports you as a ninja looter you get a ninja looter badge of shame forever above that characters head
Groth Oct 31st 2009 8:14AM
The problem comes when people don't actually need it. Say I'm collecting Elemental gear for my Shaman, with a moonkin in the group. Some caster leather drops, and he says pfft, i'm in t9.5. According to the Need system, he'd fit the bracket, and even though it's an upgrade for me and not for him, he gets it. He COULD then trade it to me. Or he could demand gold to trade it. Or he could simply refuse, say L2P u ware male.
The new system should work fine. We'll see how ninjas are able to get around it. I also seems like it won't be working in raids, and lets face it, most serious ninjaing is done in raids, not PUGd hcs.
As for the ninja debuff, it would have to be something that would last several days, or it wouldn't really have much of an impact. There would also be a risk of people using it out of context- say you've had a bad day tanking, your cat jumped on your keyboard/knocked your coffee all over your lap mid-boss (mine's changed me out of bear before), and the people in the group decide to warn other people that you suck by labelling you a ninja. Unlikely I'll admit, but still possible.
Matt Oct 31st 2009 10:40AM
So run the heroic again.
Boize Oct 31st 2009 8:38AM
Exactly, a major problem with this loot system (especially if it is to be forced) is this part of it:
"classes are limited to their dominant armor type (for example, plate for paladins)"
For example, there is a very large amount of good, even BiS, cloth pieces for Moonkins - yet we won't be able to roll on them for our mainspec if the patch changes stay the same.
Goodk4t Oct 31st 2009 9:09AM
That's exactly the reason Blues have to pay attention to everything they say: fanboys cause too much fuzz about everything!
Listen, BiS cloth for moonkin won't drop from Heroics. In fact, you won't even notice anything changed at all, because you and your group will just hit Disenchant every time, so doesn't matter if the loot system is Group Loot, Need-before-Greed or Gimme-my-Pony, it's all the same.
Now, for raids... people will Master Loot it anyway, there is no raid cross-server system and there won't be people from other servers to ninja your loot. And if your guild is half decent, tehre won't be people from out-side the guild as well. So, again, all those changes to loot system have no impact at all. =]
Shionia Oct 31st 2009 9:55AM
@ Groth: well put.
... and "specced" means what in this context for dual-spec gearing up? Say resto/holy is your main spec but you've popped to your secondary, melee spec for the group (e.g., feral or Enhancement or ret) - will this still allow you to roll on healing gear if it drops?
Elearen Oct 31st 2009 12:39PM
"The problem comes when people don't actually need it."
Not quite.
The problem comes when I, a mage, have no chance to even think about rolling on a piece of gear because the Raid Leader, also a caster, thought they might like that nice shiny piece of gear for their own purposes.
Of course they don't ask the raid if they can have it.
Not only do I not get even a chance at that piece of loot, I get locked out of doing that same raid until the next week.
Boize Oct 31st 2009 7:51PM
@Goodk4t
While it's true that Moonkin BiS won't drop from heroics, I was just using it to emphasise my point.
However, with ilevel 219 gear already dropping in H ToC, and ilevel 232 gear in H Frozen Halls, you can bet your ass that a lot of people who don't raid much (which is a substantial) will be getting upgrades from this. Heck, I know I'll be taking my alts in to gear them up too.
Unless they've added loot itemised for each class/role at the dominant armour type, this will be an issue for some people.
shamman22 Oct 31st 2009 8:25AM
The best loot system I've encountered in an MMO so far is DDO's. There is a chest after each boss fight and everyone has their own loot table. No ninja'ing is possible, no stress over loot, everyone is happy. The second best was WAR's, which had loot bags that were rolled for based on a person's contribution to the encounter. The problem was that you could disable this feature in guilds and, guess what, people abused the hell out of it.
Wow needs to come up with something like DDO. Whenever loot distribution comes up, some people argue that they are in the super-mega happy type guilds where no one has ever had a loot problem ever, ever , ever...but those are rare (or total BS). If there is even the slightest chance a loot system can be abused people will do it. Remove the ability for players to control the loot of other players and you increase the fun by like a million percent. As it stands, the WoW system is forever doomed to being the fuel for misery.