Officers' Quarters: More loot-rolling shenanigans
by Scott Andrews 
Nov 2nd 2009 at 1:00PM
Last week, I addressed a situation where a married couple who leads a guild were using the old double-rolling scam to get extra loot for each other. Normally I don't like to address the same topic two weeks in a row, but based on some of the comments from that post and the following e-mail that I received, some people still don't get why this is a problem.
So here we go again!
I read your article and while I understand it I disagree in principle. Myself (holy priest) and one of our other guild officers(Lock) routinely run in pugs for 25 Naxx, we have on several occasions rolled for gear that neither of us need. Why? Long story short, we do not need the gear but we also try to make sure than one of our less geared guildies in cloth is along for the ride, and now that we can trade the stuff to them we can use three rolls per item to help them gear up faster. We are not selling the stuff to them merely giving it to them so they can gear up faster. If I do not need gear from the raid and niether does the lock, there is a reason we are there, I don't have a problem with it and would not have any problem with anyone else doing the same thing, in fact I would commend them on the efforts on their behalf to help their guildmates.
The only time I have an issue with loot distribution is when it is a straight ninja job, player looses a roll and still gets an item or there is no roll at all and Lootmaster gives it to someone anyhow.
You're welcome to disagree with me, and I appreciate that you and another officer are willing to help out a guildmate by pugging Naxx with him or her.
I have two questions for you, however.
- Are you telling the other members of the PUG that you are doing this?
- If so, do these players agree to it?
It doesn't matter why you're stealing loot. Just because you're trying to help out a friend doesn't make it right. You're still stealing from other players. And if you're not telling them what you're doing (which I have to assume you're not), you're also lying about it. It's a lie of omission, but that's a far cry from honesty.
In fact, a ninja like the one you describe at least has the decency to steal loot openly and face the consequences. You're stealing loot behind other players' backs while pretending that everything's on the level. Which is worse?
You are intentionally manipulating the random element of the situation so that one person is three times as likely to receive loot as anyone else. It's completely unfair to the remaining players in the raid, who aren't aware of the circumstances. They're being honest, and they're being robbed. Sure, you three may not always win the rolls, but that doesn't change the fact that you're loading the dice.
If there's a loot cap in place, which is often the case for 25-player PUGs, you are also circumventing that rule.
Any way you slice it, unless you've expressly asked permission from the raid to roll this way, what you're doing is underhanded and dishonest.
I would strongly encourage you (and everyone else out there who might be pulling these scams) to stop before you ruin the reputation of your guild. Sooner or later someone is going to inspect you and question why you're rolling on a Naxx item when you're wearing Tier 9 in that slot.
You'll have to come clean, and your guild will be exposed as cheats. Word will spread. Players on your realm may not accept your members into PUGs anymore, and then no one in your guild will be able to gear up that way.
Is it worth all that grief just for some Naxx gear for one person? You'd be better off in the long run helping that player run Heroics for badges. He or she will get much better gear for their efforts and, considering you can run Heroics every day instead of once per week, that player could potentially gear up a lot faster, too.
The alternative is a world where PUGs are loaded up with 5 players who need gear and 20 players who are just there to roll for them. Nobody wants that, so knock it off!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 12)
Tinneas Nov 2nd 2009 1:07PM
lol pwned. Totally agree with the author. Human beings love to believe they are doing the 'right' thing or being honest and it's awesome when you can point out that we are all just a bunch of selfish animals.
roshan.cheema Nov 3rd 2009 12:31AM
Classic case of Robin Hood Robbin
Mordockk Nov 2nd 2009 2:31PM
if you have 4 people rolling on loot then they all should have 1/4(25%) chance to win, then if 3 of those guys are buddies trying to get 1 of them loot then that one persons chances of getting loot are 75% but in all fairness only 2 people shold be rolling need for the item so it shold be a 50/50 roll......now imagine if the raid is a 1 item per system...it increases that persons chances to get multiple items thus resulting in kevin bacon.
Boz Nov 2nd 2009 3:03PM
How can anyone agree with the author? You can agree with the principle, but not with the facts. These gamers are using the system available to them to its greatest utility. What they are doing IS unethical, possibly even dishonest (due to a lack of full disclosure), but it is NOT "stealing." You cannot steal when something does not yet have an owner.
Consider the following excellent article from the Warcraft Hunter's Union, which offers this: "A loot system – indeed any system – should be designed to encourage the behavior you want."
http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2009/10/abusing-guild-systems/
The current loot system is promoting the behavior described. To prevent this type of unethical behavior would require no less than a change to the loot system(s) of the game. Consider, the following would resolve this (though both require a master loot system):
1 - A feature allowing a master looter to soulbind items to roll winners.
2 - Force players to trade through the loot master. For example, instead of, "You may trade this item with players that were eligible to loot this item for the next (time remaining)" change it to, "This item may be returned to the loot master for the next (time remaining)."
I'm sure there are other possible solutions, but the two aforementioned spring to mind most readily. Someone last week also mentioned requiring winners to use a cheap enchant to bind the item, but this relies on an appropriate response from the recipient, rather than the distributor, which does not prevent abuse from occurring (grab item, log out, change names, change servers, whatever - people are nuts).
Regardless, this is why it is so very important to roll really, really hard.
Spazmoose Nov 2nd 2009 3:13PM
"we are all just a bunch of selfish animals" That's just the druids ;-)
In all reality, however, this is a question of morality and ethics, and to which school of ethics you apply to the situation. The letter writer is most likely using "the ends justify the means" school of ethics, whereas the author is coming from a different point of view.
While I don't necessarily condone what the letter writer is stating, that does not necessarily make it wrong, it just depends on how you look at it.
:::If a thief steals antibiotics for a dying child, because the child was denied health care, who is more wrong, the thief or society?:::
Boz Nov 2nd 2009 3:25PM
And where the heck is my "Edit Comment" button?
Spiderpk Nov 2nd 2009 4:08PM
":::If a thief steals antibiotics for a dying child, because the child was denied health care, who is more wrong, the thief or society?:::"
To answer your question, I believe:
- Society is wrong for neglecting the needy (especially a child)
- The thief is wrong in breaking the law and should be prepared for the consequences.
However, the objective answer is that it depends on your morality (how you view right and wrong). Most people would probably say that society is wrong and condone the thief, while some would rebuke the thief for breaking an established law. I think that's the point of the post - the responder justified their actions using their own morality (it's okay since they're helping a guildie) instead of the common morality (everyone should have a fair and equal shot at loot).
Razortooth Nov 2nd 2009 4:29PM
@Boz
Yes, the current loot system, at least in my opinion, is flawed in this way; however, that does not mean it should be exploited whenever possible. Loot systems in wow are like diamonds: some are better than others, but you can find a flaw in anything if you look closely enough. Rather than trying to exploit the system in place (by giving you guildie 3x the chances for 1x the effort), players should attempt to make it work with their integrity.
On a side note, your comment shouldn't be voted down for having an opposing point of view to that of the general public.
jmsalsa Nov 2nd 2009 4:33PM
so if i roll on and win the gem bag from Ony i'm only allowed to use those gems for myself? i can't give them guildies?
seems like people are now putting all sorts of rules and regulations on loot and rolls that don't add up. once you win - it's yours and you can do what you want with it. can i no longer give away my gold to help guildies out?
MazokuRanma Nov 2nd 2009 5:06PM
@jmsalsa
Your example brings to mind the 'Reading is Hard' article from the other day. The argument is about gear, not random items. Something like the gem bag tends to get rolled on by everybody, unless the master looter ninjas it, which is definitely stealing.
The point here is that in most raids, the ruleset for rolling involves rolling on only on things that you need, that would be an upgrade for you. If you roll on those t7 shoulders while wearing your t9.5, you are in direct violation of the rules unless you worked the situation out with the rest of the raid prior.
What I don't understand is why people don't just ask these questions up front more often. I find that in most pugs on my server, generally the rule is to only roll on something you need, and usually it is restricted to one piece of regular loot, one piece of tier to try and keep distribution fair. I've gone in with undergeared friends to help and pointed out that I'd be using my 2 pieces of loot to help them since I would be rolling on nothing for myself, and I've only met resistance in one case. When that happened, I chose to not attend the raid. If I'm not going to benefit either myself or my friends, then I'm not going to spend the time; but as I said, people are almost universally understanding of this, or seem to be in the pug raids I've done at least.
TL;DR: Just say what you're doing up front. People will be more understanding than most seem to think, and it's not like you have to stay in the raid if they aren't.
t0xic Nov 2nd 2009 5:08PM
Question:
You're in a 25 man PUG raid with 3 guildies. You and the other 3 people are melee/plate dps. The least geared of your guildies stands in fire and is situationally unaware at the best of times.
A sweet 2H sword drops. Do you need roll even though you have better? Would you hand it over to the undergeared guildy for free if you won the roll? For money? For sexual favors? (kidding) I'm just wondering how many shades of grey there are. It seems like a lot of people would do just about anything if they thought it would gain favor with their friends (even if it meant hurting other people they don't know). Since we've already established that there are people that make exceptions for their friends -- where do you guys draw the line?
Thoughts?
(cutaia) Nov 2nd 2009 5:53PM
t0xic,
Have you seen the trailer for that movie where someone can press a button for a million dollars, but they're told that someone in the world will die if they do?
Thanks to you, I'm going to see that entire movie as a metaphor for loot ninjas now. :D
Psiwave Nov 2nd 2009 7:00PM
":::If a thief steals antibiotics for a dying child, because the child was denied health care, who is more wrong, the thief or society?:::"
well, in this particular case you are stealing from one 'dying child' (somone less geared) to give to another, your only justification for this being that one child is close to you and the other is a stranger. So yes the thief is wrong. The 'society' might also be in the wrong, but since in this case it's an emotionless RNG I very much doubt it gives a damn for your notions of morality.
sooper Nov 2nd 2009 9:40PM
@cutia
As soon as the guy said there was a button she could press for money, I said out loud in the theatre "I'D HIT IT". I didn't give it a 2nd thought.
sooper Nov 2nd 2009 9:51PM
to add to the conversation.
Suppose you were joining a PUG. 3 of the people in the group are decked out and you see/assume the only other person in the group that you will be rolling against. He/she is accompanied by 2 guildies. Everyone else has clearly put in work for their gear so you prepare yourself for another grind of the same old instance.
Suddenly a much needed upgrade appears and you are informed that the undergeared player will be granted 1 additional roll for each guild member present.
Is that fair? Sure if you agree to it. No if you don't.
Take it one step further,
What if they didn't tell you and that was still the case? You practically just wasted an instance run. See you tomorrow/next week.
It's not right. No matter how you try to spin it. If you think it is, maybe you're guilty of being on the conspiring or receiving end. If this is how you would like to spoil your guildies, then get in a guild that's big enough to do guild run. It's the guild's responsibility to grant this level of treatment but once that run becomes a PUG run such behavior is unacceptable.
Bottom line.
Cambro Nov 3rd 2009 2:32AM
Totally agree with the author.
@Boz, totally disagree with you. "What they are doing IS unethical, possibly even dishonest (due to a lack of full disclosure), but it is NOT "stealing.""
Are these people stealing loot from other people? Not in the sense that they're reaching into another player's inventory and removing it. Neither are they master looting the loot and taking it for themselves contrary to the established system of determining the winner.
No, but they are stealing in this sense: The vast majority of raid situations use the established and well-understood system of "highest roll wins". In theory, in a 10 man raid, each person has a 10% chance to win an item if everyone rolls. If 2 people collude and agree beforehand that one of them will win the item by trading if necessary, then 1 person has a 0% chance, 1 person has a 20% chance, and the other 8 people each effectively have only a 10% chance to win. You're weighting the chance of winning in 1 person's favor while reducing everyone else's chance of winning.
In the article's scenario, assuming a 10 man raid and a roll on an item wanted by their buddy and everyone else (for ease of numbers), the 2 colluders each have 0% chance, their buddy has a 30% chance of winning, and the other 7 people each only have 10% chance. If it was a 25 man raid, each person would have a 4% chance of winning before weighting...after weighting, 1 person has a 12% chance, everyone else stays at 4% (except the colluders, at 0% each).
So in a sense you're stealing other people's PROBABILITY of winning the loot rather than the loot itself...but since a successful roll leads to the actual loot...yes, in fact you ARE STEALING loot from other people, by improving your chance of winning at the expense of your competitors.
Kinda like if you were playing baseball and when you hit the ball you don't have to get within six feet of the bases while everyone else has to tag up...eh, I'll stop now.
chris.gorton Nov 3rd 2009 5:51AM
It may not be 'stealing' but it is called collusion.
Trying this sort of thing in Vagas would earn you a place in a basement 'suite' with a bloke called bruiser who would proceed to divest you of your kneecaps.
Lol that would be a great name for a movement impairing ability in game!
/cast Kneecap (Rank 1)
Boz Nov 3rd 2009 8:36AM
Contrary opinions are good; they make us question our own conclusions:
@Razortooth
I completely agree with you. The current loot system should not be exploited, and generally I think this type of unethical behavior is the exception rather than the rule. What I am saying is that to completely prevent this type of behavior a change would have to be made to the system, as there will - unfortunately - always be gamers that take advantage of such loopholes, no matter how noble (or nefarious) their intentions.
I wouldn't worry about comment voting; it's just WoW.com's way of allowing gamers that prefer not to comment to express their disagreement, and that's okay (even when they disagree with me).
@Cambro
I get where you're coming from, but probability is the right of each raid member, and the current loot system allows players the right to distribute that probability to any member they wish. I'm not saying it's right, it's certainly not, but it is hardly stealing, meaning it does not compare to hacking into an account, taking a guild bank, and transferring it to another toon or set of toons. That being said, I think there may be some validity to your argument from an opportunity-loss standpoint. You've definitely given me some food for thought.
It's funny, Cambro, your comment made me think of the conversation between Luke Skywalker and Ben Kenobi in Return of the Jedi:
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. "
artifex Nov 3rd 2009 9:55AM
It's certainly stealing the time of the puggers who aren't in on the scheme, and their opportunity during that lockout period.
Extrox Nov 2nd 2009 1:08PM
Honestly, I agree with the Author of the article.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where the letter writer is coming from in a "I want to help my friends" sense. While it's a very nice gesture it's, as mentioned in the article, not such a nice one in regards to the other people in the raid (assuming they're unaware).