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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: More loot-rolling shenanigans
by Scott Andrews 
Nov 2nd 2009 at 1:00PM
Last week, I addressed a situation where a married couple who leads a guild were using the old double-rolling scam to get extra loot for each other. Normally I don't like to address the same topic two weeks in a row, but based on some of the comments from that post and the following e-mail that I received, some people still don't get why this is a problem.
So here we go again!
I read your article and while I understand it I disagree in principle. Myself (holy priest) and one of our other guild officers(Lock) routinely run in pugs for 25 Naxx, we have on several occasions rolled for gear that neither of us need. Why? Long story short, we do not need the gear but we also try to make sure than one of our less geared guildies in cloth is along for the ride, and now that we can trade the stuff to them we can use three rolls per item to help them gear up faster. We are not selling the stuff to them merely giving it to them so they can gear up faster. If I do not need gear from the raid and niether does the lock, there is a reason we are there, I don't have a problem with it and would not have any problem with anyone else doing the same thing, in fact I would commend them on the efforts on their behalf to help their guildmates.
The only time I have an issue with loot distribution is when it is a straight ninja job, player looses a roll and still gets an item or there is no roll at all and Lootmaster gives it to someone anyhow.
You're welcome to disagree with me, and I appreciate that you and another officer are willing to help out a guildmate by pugging Naxx with him or her.
I have two questions for you, however.
- Are you telling the other members of the PUG that you are doing this?
- If so, do these players agree to it?
It doesn't matter why you're stealing loot. Just because you're trying to help out a friend doesn't make it right. You're still stealing from other players. And if you're not telling them what you're doing (which I have to assume you're not), you're also lying about it. It's a lie of omission, but that's a far cry from honesty.
In fact, a ninja like the one you describe at least has the decency to steal loot openly and face the consequences. You're stealing loot behind other players' backs while pretending that everything's on the level. Which is worse?
You are intentionally manipulating the random element of the situation so that one person is three times as likely to receive loot as anyone else. It's completely unfair to the remaining players in the raid, who aren't aware of the circumstances. They're being honest, and they're being robbed. Sure, you three may not always win the rolls, but that doesn't change the fact that you're loading the dice.
If there's a loot cap in place, which is often the case for 25-player PUGs, you are also circumventing that rule.
Any way you slice it, unless you've expressly asked permission from the raid to roll this way, what you're doing is underhanded and dishonest.
I would strongly encourage you (and everyone else out there who might be pulling these scams) to stop before you ruin the reputation of your guild. Sooner or later someone is going to inspect you and question why you're rolling on a Naxx item when you're wearing Tier 9 in that slot.
You'll have to come clean, and your guild will be exposed as cheats. Word will spread. Players on your realm may not accept your members into PUGs anymore, and then no one in your guild will be able to gear up that way.
Is it worth all that grief just for some Naxx gear for one person? You'd be better off in the long run helping that player run Heroics for badges. He or she will get much better gear for their efforts and, considering you can run Heroics every day instead of once per week, that player could potentially gear up a lot faster, too.
The alternative is a world where PUGs are loaded up with 5 players who need gear and 20 players who are just there to roll for them. Nobody wants that, so knock it off!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 12)
Iano Nov 2nd 2009 2:10PM
While I also agree with the author on terms of dishonesty- that is, you need to be open about it if you are doing this- I very much agree with the letter writer in principle. If you are in a Naxx and have, or would have, a legitimate shot at an item (as in the example of a lock/priest rolling on cloth for each other), I can't see anything wrong with that!
And Andrews, I must say, I'm already part of a LOT of PuGs of Naxx where your doomsday scenario is already the case- 20 players in tier 8 or 9 and 5-7 undergeared 80s who simply want some loot. The thing is, the overgeared 15-20 rarely bother rolling on extra loot for the others, because there is so very, very much loot to go around. The world you're describing already exists as is, at least on my server and in my WoW social circle, and it's not really problematic, as far as I'm concerned, and I've been on both sides (though never exercised a roll to pass off an item, nor had one passed off to me- just the opposite- lost items myself, or let them go to someone else, rather than the person I might strictly desire).
What you describe in the article is a situation that will result in fewer and fewer mightily overgeared toons running Naxx, because gearing up friends is one of the primary reasons the truly overgeared still do it- some do it for fun (rarely, thought more often than some might think!), and others do it out of charity, but most people WANT SOMETHING out of the run when they go- gearing up and offspec, just badges, or, most especially, gearing up guildies and friends. I sure as heck do not care if I'm rolling against the tank or the 7000 DPS and their undergeared, 1500 DPS friend on something, because they're helping me one-shot the bosses, rather than my old-time wipefest PuG experience in Naxx-10 and -25. 7 hours for just a few wings. That will really tire you out, and for my part, I would gladly let a few overgeared toons roll on my drops to pass them to their guildies rather than endure it.
You can say that the overgeared toons should just bow to the rules of the single roll, but that reduces, possibly significantly, their incentive to run Naxx, and as economics goes, that will reduce their numbers. Naxx can be terribly fun, but a little extra gear from higher content makes 7-hour wipefests into 3-4 hour full clears, and I love those so much more that I'm willing to lose a few rolls in order to have many more opportunities.
In this novel, I lastly present a counter situation: what if the overgeared rollers brought their alts? The Priest rolling on cloth for a warlock brings in HIS OWN warlock, for whom the piece is indeed an upgrade? Is it wrong for the new warlock to pass off loot to the original warlock? Why, or why not? What if heals are lacking, and the raid desires/needs the priest more?
I guess I'm just alien to your culture, folks. I don't understand how there can be so many bad feelings about this- except in the already described cases we all talked about last week (trophies, especially). It is my opinion that this is less a case of rampant greed on the part of the letter-writer, and more a case of rampant greed on the part of those who think this sucks so badly: you're trying to inflate that 1 in 25 or 1 in 10 roll to the greatest possible power by making the fewest possible people eligible to exercise their roll.
LilBanshee Nov 2nd 2009 1:51PM
It's not being mean to anybody, and nobody is getting taken advantage of.
The scenario: 3/25ths of the PUG raid are cloth DPS guildmates, and lets say 3 other cloth DPS are in the raid aside from them.
Hypothetical 1: All three guildmates need gear from this content, so they all roll on cloth drops.
Hypothetical 2: Two of the guildies are overgeared for the content and are only there to get their third guildmate some gear by rolling on cloth drops.
In either hypothetical scenario the same number of rolls are taking place (6 rolls). All cloth wearers in the raid have the exact same chance of winning the roll in both scenarios so nobody is cheated out of anything.
If a given person joins the raid as a clothy and sees five other cloth DPS, they expect to win one sixth of the cloth drops (with a little adjustment for healer +MP5 gear vs dps +hit gear), and that is what they are entitled to. They should count themselves lucky that the overgeared clothies came to make their raid smoother, and stop trying to exploit those guildmates to increase their slice of the pie to one quarter or all cloth drops instead of the one sixth they are entitled to.
The guildmates are entitled to their one main-spec roll apiece, let them use those as they please. Otherwise they would have no motivation to come, so they would leave and be replaced by less-geared players who will roll the same number of times on the same gear anyhow, while contributing less to the run.
OLDMIKE Nov 2nd 2009 2:00PM
its still stealing as only 4 shoud be rolling
LilBanshee Nov 2nd 2009 2:02PM
I meant to erase all the extra 'dps' words after adding the bit about adjusting for dps/heal main specs, since in the scenario one of the guildies is a holy priest. If that holy priest was rolling on hit gear to give to his buddy, that I'd agree is cheating since its not his main spec. But he can roll on non-hit gear and give it to his buddy, sure.
dukrous Nov 2nd 2009 2:03PM
Wrong, not everyone has an even chance to win. If you have 6 rolls, but 2 are proxies, the benefiting guildie has a 50% chance of winning while the other 3 clothies have 16.66% chance to win the roll. The guildies are stealing, plain and simple, when, if fair, all the clothies who need gear would have a 25% chance to win.
LilBanshee Nov 2nd 2009 2:08PM
@OLDMIKE
You're just saying 4 people should be rolling because 4 people should be rolling. I.e. I'm wrong because I'm wrong. But why?
Oversimplifications like that are not only unfair to the people in question, but detrimental to everyone else in the group as well. Your logic would cause the geared players to leave and be replaced by undergeared players who are going to roll on the same gear anyhow. Thats a lose-lose alternative, everyone has a harder time in the instance now, and nobody gets a bigger cut of the pie than the 1/6th they were already going to get.
Neirin Nov 2nd 2009 2:10PM
Lilbanshee, I'm fairly sure you forgot hypothetical situation 3: the 2 overgeared guildies don't roll. rather than a 1 in 6 chance, the non-guild people have a 1 in 4 chance - that means they're each about 8-9% more likely to receive loot. I probably wouldn't want to pug with a guild if I knew it meant I'd be 9% less likely to get loot, especially since I'm already fighting the rng of it dropping and then winning a roll fair and square.
LilBanshee Nov 2nd 2009 2:12PM
@dukrous
Player X gets a 16% chance of winning each item in hypothetical 1
Player X still gets a 16% chance of winning each item in hypothetical 2
Resist the knee-jerk reaction and think about it: Why does it matter to them which hypothetical they are in? Whether the raid has those three guildmate clothies or three other clothies, it doesn't effect the other players in the raid whatsoever in terms of gear, while benefitting everyone in terms of raid smoothness.
t0xic Nov 2nd 2009 2:14PM
This entire line of thought screams of entitlement. I outgear this content. You are lucky to have me. Bow down.
Friday_Knight Nov 2nd 2009 2:20PM
They're entitled to their one roll apiece for a main spec UPGRADE. The Author is right. You're doing nothing but screwing people out of loot and it will eventually come back to bite you in the ass.
Using your own example if I join a raid as a cloth-wearer and see 5 other cloth-wearers I will initially expect to have 5 others roll against me at most. In reality not all cloth gear is for every cloth-wearer's main spec (healing/mp5 gear vs. hit/dps gear), but we'll just overlook that like you did. However if I look at the other cloth-wearers and see that 3 or 4 of them are tier 9 geared then I will expect that I only have 1 or 2 others to roll again. If I then find that when my gear drops that all 5 other players are rolling on gear that they don't need I'd be really pissed. And rightfully so.
He's also right that for the effort and drama you could much more easily just run your guildies through heroics for badges to get higher ilevel gear. Why would you potentially cause all this drama over crappy ilevel 213 epics. You could at least be straightforward with the people and do the "X item is reserved" thing that I see so much these days. At least they're telling you upfront that they're not being fair.
Iano Nov 2nd 2009 2:20PM
Toxic, when I am on my nothing-over-ilvl-200 and a couple pieces well under it Shaman, in Naxx 25, I DO INDEED feel very lucky to have a tank with 40k hp, or a healer putting out 3 or 4 x the healing I can, or even a 6-7k dps on my side! I HATE 7-hour naxx runs that get 2-3 wings down, I DETEST them, and I LOVE it when we can get through a little more easily, and I am HAPPY to get a 16% chance at loot instead of a 25% chance at loot because they are present!
Thank you!
LilBanshee Nov 2nd 2009 2:22PM
@Neirin
Scenario 3 requires that the two overgeared players are philanthropists who want to give everyone free help and gear with no benefit to themselves whatsoever for the time they are investing. Heck yeah, I'd love to be surrounded by those people.
Come now, lets be realistic, if they don't get to roll why would they be in the raid at all? They aren't trying to exploit you, they want you to have your fair portion of the cloth, whereas you want to exploit them by claiming you are entitled to a disproportionate portion of the cloth while giving them nothing. Why not just enjoy the smoother run and your fair slice of one sixth of the cloth drops, being as you are only one sixth of the cloth wearers?
Again, if it wasn't them in the raid, it'd be three other clothies rolling on the same gear. You're not getting jipped out of anything whatsoever.
Nuka Nov 2nd 2009 2:23PM
@LilBanshee
"Player X gets a 16% chance of winning each item in hypothetical 1
Player X still gets a 16% chance of winning each item in hypothetical 2"
Your hypotheticals are wrong in principle to be comparing them. They are 2 different scenarios. The 2 you should be comparing at the same time are:
Hypothetical 1: of the 6 clothies, if 2 of them are overgeared and do not roll... 1/4 chance of winning for anyone
In the same group
Hypothetical 2: Of the 6 clothies, if 2 are overgeared but roll to give to their other guildie, guildie has a 3/6 chance of winning, over 1/6 for the other 3 members of the PuG.
Your first hypothetical is fine, if you need the gear and roll on it, then it's ok. I have no problem, you gearing up. If you give someone else extra chance on gear that I only have the chance once a week to get at, then that's dishonest.
LilBanshee Nov 2nd 2009 2:38PM
@Iano
Exactly, I'm thrilled when overgeared people join PUGs with me, although I'm not about to 'bow down' to them as toxic suggested.
@Nuka
I don't get how it is okay to profit at the expense of others (you getting a higher cut of the drops because the overgeared players help you for no benefit to themselves), but its not okay for others to profit in a way that doesn't harm you whatsoever (three players pooling the gear which they won with the rolls they were entitled to). If it was three other players you'd be in the exact same situation with the same portion of the loot, only with a harder time getting through the dungeon. They don't want to exploit you, but you're happy to exploit them, and that's not cool.
jrizutko Nov 2nd 2009 2:48PM
@lilbanshee
Actually, in any scenario where its okay for people to roll on things and pass them off, then every member of the raid should get a chance to roll regardless of whether or not they can even equip an item. Tanks can roll on caster cloth because they can pass it to their friends. Priests can roll on melee plate, because they want it for a friend.
That means none of your math means anything. The person with the most friends gets the most gear, any way you slice it. unless its only okay for SOME people to role on gear they won't use and not others.
Branch Nov 2nd 2009 2:50PM
I have to laugh at people actually trying to justify this. If you think that people who don't need the gear themselves should be able to roll for others, then at least be man enough to open it up to everyone. Tell everyone that all 25 people can roll need on everything, then they can pass around the gear after, or sell as they see fit. At least it's equally fair to everyone and not the loaded dice/stealing you are doing.
LilBanshee Nov 2nd 2009 2:59PM
@jrizutko
We've been through several logical fallacies now, why not throw in a straw man for flavor?
Default: 6 clothies roll on 6 cloth drops
With three colluding guildmates: 6 clothies roll on 6 cloth drops
Your scenario: 25 players roll on 6 cloth
Thats not remotely the same thing as any of what I or anyone else is talking about. I never said everyone should roll on everything, I said each person is entitled to their roll on their main spec gear only, and beyond that they can do what they wish with what they win. This is what everyone already does, the only question is how that should apply to overgeared players who dont actually need anything from the raid.
If you're going to attack my option, attack my actual opinion and not a discrediting distortion of it.
XionFyre Nov 2nd 2009 3:08PM
@lilB
I think the fundamental difference in thought process here is that you believe that when you 'help' another person, it entitles you to a reward.
Other people believe that helping another doesn't automatically entitle you to get something.
For example: If I go over to my friend's house to help him move his couch, I do not feel that he needs to give me a free gift for doing it. I'm doing it because he's my friend.
Likewise, if I go to Nax to help out my guildmate, I do not expect a reward. I am there because I want to help/enjoy the instance.
I personally have never rolled on a piece of gear that wasn't an upgrade for me, without express permission by the raid leader and/or the majority of the group. If even one person says no, I won't roll.
Nuka Nov 2nd 2009 3:22PM
@LilBanshee
I understand your approach, and I can see what you are trying to say. I have no problem reimbursing someone who outgears an instance or raid for their time. But you are not. You are rewarding their guildie for having a friend who is willing to put in the time, and that's at your expense. However, let's simplify this and try to put it into hard figures.
3 non-together clothies in a (fictious instance) group.
All clothies wearing iLevel 200
Pulling approximately same dps
After a boss down, iLevel 226 loot drops (I'm keeping it extreme, to make it a clear upgrade to all)
1/3 chance for anyone
3 clothies in a group, with one of those rolling for another
2 are equal on iLvl 200, other is guildie and wearing all 245.
2 equal clothies pulling approx same DPs
After a boss down, iLevel 226 loot drops
All 3 roll
2/3 chance of winning for clothie with guildie.
OR 2 who require roll
1/2 chance of winning.
Either way the outcome is the same, one of the two who require the gear will be wearing the cloth. Why is it that the one who has a friend should get a better chance at that gear?
What if raids were once a month, is it still fair that the non-guilded person is locked out without an upgrade, because someone unfairly had an increased chance of winning? Just because lockouts are only a week, the principle doesn't change.
I'm not for everyone rolling on every loot, but I believe that only the people who will be wearing an item should be rolling for it. That's where fairness comes into play.
What if in the above scenario, the 2 clothies in equal gear weren't doing the same DPS? What if the guilded one was significantly lower, was afk'ing mid-boss fights, breaking CC (not as important now I know, but still), maybe pulling aggro off tanks and dying or causing wipes consistently. He rolls 40 on the loot, the other player rolls 70. He asks his guildie, who has been a strong tank/healer/dps to roll on the item and the guildie rolls 80 and passes the loot to the player. Does he still deserve it then?
I've tried to give extreme examples to show you my stance, I'm naturally not a grey-area person, but I can appreciate people who are. To me, if it's wrong at the extremes, it's wrong closer together. Giving someone an unfair advantage at something, when it is clearly designed not to be the case (remember this feature only really recently came in, before then things were designed to be untradable), is wrong.
lifega Nov 2nd 2009 3:45PM
I went thru and upranked every one of LilBanshee's responses cuz he/she said exactly what I wanted to say without knowing how to say it.
what these detractors just can't get is that overgeared-guildie-friend coming into naxx and rolling for undergeared-guildie-friend isn't lowering the chances of unguilded-clothie of getting an upgrade. if anything, his presence is increasing unguilded-clothie's chances of getting an upgrade, because with more dps/healing there is more likely a chance of success which means more drops, which means more chances to roll.
This is a social game. There are rewards to playing with friends. And the more friends you play with the more rewards you're going to reap. If you want to ascribe to sytematic unchanging rules that apply to everyone in equal proportion one hundred percent of the time what you want is an offline game.
And lets be honest here, how many of you ran Direbrew and got the same Ram drop you already had when you were hoping for a Kodo. But you rolled anyway cuz if it was gonna go to anyone it might as well go to the guildie who was also in the run. I did. Twice.