The Queue: Icecrown Radiance

Welcome back to The Queue, WoW.com's daily Q&A column where the WoW.com team answers your questions about the World of Warcraft. Adam Holisky be your host today.
One question that has been coming up a lot lately: What are we going to do when Cataclysm's open beta starts? The answer is The Queue is going to turn back into its original inception of Ask a Beta Tester, except we're still going to leave the name as The Queue.
Today's Queue will focus on the multitude of questions we've received about Chill of the Throne, or more snarkingly called, Icecrown Radiance. Read on for questions and answers, and a tale of Little Jimmy using his obesity to mitigate the damage caused by his brother.
Good times!
A couple million people complained...
"Won't the 20% dodge nerf from Icecrown Radiance make tanking impossible in patch 3.3?"
One question that has been coming up a lot lately: What are we going to do when Cataclysm's open beta starts? The answer is The Queue is going to turn back into its original inception of Ask a Beta Tester, except we're still going to leave the name as The Queue.
Today's Queue will focus on the multitude of questions we've received about Chill of the Throne, or more snarkingly called, Icecrown Radiance. Read on for questions and answers, and a tale of Little Jimmy using his obesity to mitigate the damage caused by his brother.
Good times!
A couple million people complained...
"Won't the 20% dodge nerf from Icecrown Radiance make tanking impossible in patch 3.3?"
TL;DR version: NO.
Extended answer: Chill of the Throne is going to decrease dodge by 20%. If you had 50% dodge, you're now going to have 30% dodge. Remember that WoW exists on a scale -- where there is damage in, there needs to be healing in. Where there is a nerf, there needs to be a buff. The ratio in a perfectly balanced game in this delicate act will be 1:1, for every nerf there is a buff.
So with this nerf to dodge, there is going to be a "buff" to the spike damage (at least in the eyes of a healers, although the terminology doesn't exactly fit here -- which is why nerf and buff can be such bad words in game design discussions, even though everyone uses them all the time). The spike damage of bosses in Icecrown Citadel is going to be decreased significantly. This is going to have two major effects:
- Healers are going to have less twitch response in their healing. Healing will become less like a FPS action and more like a D&D action. Yes, those are extreme examples, but they get the point across.
- Bosses are going to hit faster, but not as hard. Where it might have taken two big hits to drop a tank without appropriate HoTs on him, it's now going to take three. Even though all the hits are going to equal the same amount of damage overall, the extra time in the equation will make healing the tank easier.
Litte Jimmy Asked...
"Why did they make Chill of the Throne/Icecrown Radiance?"
Tanks have two primary schools of damage reductions: avoidance and mitigation. Avoidance is where you avoid the attack entirely. You know when your brother takes a swing at you for stealing his ice cream, Jimmy? And you know when you duck out of the way and he slams his fist into the wall instead? You avoided an attack; you dodged it. That's what avoidance is.
And you know how sometimes when your brother punches you in your butt, but it doesn't hurt because all that ice cream you were eating has made you a fat little porker? That's mitigation - taking a hit but the hit doesn't hurt as much because there's lot of padding (fat) there.
Now according to Blizzard, you're ducking out of the way of your brother's punches too much. So they're making the floor really sticky, which means you won't be able duck and doge as easily. This means instead of dodging all the attacks, you're going to have to take a few punches where you've packed on the pounds instead.
And Jimmy? I'd tell your mom about your brother. She needs to have a talk with him. And get on a treadmill, for Elune's sake.
Angry WoW commenters asked...
"If they're making Chill of the Throne in response to all the avoidance we have, why give it to us in the first place?"
That's a very valid question and complaint, although the way it was phrased by so many people left a lot to be desired. According to statements made by Ghostcrawler, they didn't originally intend for tanks to have so much avoidance at the final leg of Wrath (where we are now). The extra avoidance came about through the extra tiers of gear that were dropped in heroic modes.
And they made all the extra heroic modes because people really responded well to them.
So what happened was, through the natural itemization of tanking gear, tanks had too much avoidance, leading to both too spiky damage and too much dodging and parrying. Instead of reworking all the gear, which would likely necessitate re-balancing the majority of boss encounters (which would take months), they instead decided to apply Chill of the Throne to Icecrown Citadel raids.
That's why it happened. You might not agree with it, but there it is.
Now is it Blizzard's fault for not seeing this far enough in the future to avoid the mistakes of Sunwell Radiance again? Yes, at the end of the day it is. But it's important to remember a few things.
- This is just a game.
- Sunwell was still cleared and played with by guilds that were appropriately geared, just as Icecrown Citadel will be.
- Blizzard could not have predicated the success of the various heroic modes.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, The Queue






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
NoTomorrow Nov 2nd 2009 2:06PM
Is it just me, or are most of the questions easily answerable by doing around 5 minutes of searching/bluetracking? Seriously, why wait a day for your question when you could know in less than 10 minutes?
Blackhorn Nov 2nd 2009 2:18PM
This is more about Bloggers looking for something to write about, even though in their heart's they know this question is really old, and the asker has since found answers on 8 other websites.
It's about blogging, not about providing an actual useful service.
Adam Holisky Nov 2nd 2009 2:23PM
So it's not useful to you.
Go and tell that to the thousands posting on the forums about it still and the hundreds of comments and questions we got about it over the weekend.
And judging by the reception of this edition of the Queue as we judge such things, this has already been a success.
(cutaia) Nov 2nd 2009 2:42PM
Maybe the better question is, "Why waste a moment of time searching for answers about an unopened raid...when it will be handed to you via RSS feed, albeit slightly later?"
Was there really a sense of urgency for you in regards to knowing this information?
catharsis80 Nov 2nd 2009 2:49PM
What a dumb comment. What if I DID Google search it and wow.com was the result of the search? Then I'd come here and see the first comment (yours) and see that it is the exact opposite of what I've just experienced.
*rollseyes*
(cutaia) Nov 2nd 2009 4:53PM
I don't know if my comment was just confusingly written or what, but I'm just trying to say that some of us find this blog very useful because we don't feel the need to instantly do searches on bluetrackers for every little thing that happens in the world of Warcraft. For us, this information is new and delivered in a nice compact package. That's the reason some of us would "wait" a whole day for answers.
Anom Nov 2nd 2009 2:09PM
Lol any1 smell DK and Bear Tank nerf?
Us pallies and warrior tanks aren't as concerned, we'll just swap into our BV sets. Dodge gets nerfed to the ground in Icecrown. In addition, Bosses hit faster, but not as hard.
This is perfect since we can block. We'll ditch our avoidance sets and put on BV gear. Bosses hitting not as hard + more block = even less tank damage to heal. Now we just need some block value gems and we'll see the return of Warrior Tanking dominance. That extra dps and threat from blocking is also sexy.
Gnosh Nov 2nd 2009 2:40PM
Completely wrong. As GC said, if there was a passive effect that reduced AP or SP by 1,000, would you stop stacking AP/SP? no. They are reducing your avoidance from Dodge by exactly 20%- not 20% of your dodge chance.
And the line about bosses hitting "faster" is a misunderstanding. Bosses will be hitting at more or less the same speed- or at least, their swing speed. Because you avoid less of the hits, though, you are being hit more often. This represents a tiny buff to BV. DKs and bears will be fine.
Jafari Nov 2nd 2009 3:06PM
I think Anom is right. I have a druid and a pally tank. My druid has one (one!) way to avoid attacks. Currently, the dodge chance on that character is somewhere between 40% and 50% depending on buffs/procs. I stack agility, and if that's not available, dodge.
My pally tank has something like 15% dodge chance, with some (but not much) dodge rating and agility on gear and gems, and the prot talent, anticipation. (admittedly, my pally tank is new-ish, and not up to icecrown standards, but I think the example still holds at up to 24% dodge - see below)
The effect of the Icecrown radiance on my druid will be that my dodge will be reduced down to 20% - 30%. I have no way to make up for this except to just stack even more dodge. For my pally, it will pretty much push dodge off the attack table.
However, on my Paladin, if I take talent points out of anticipation, and change my gear into stuff that has no agility or dodge, but has block or parry instead, I may be able to reduce my baseline dodge chance to something like 8%. The end result is that I have somewhat higher block and parry chances, and still no chance to dodge, but I'm losing less avoidance overall. The most you can lose is however much you have.
tankerheal Nov 2nd 2009 3:10PM
He's right about block value. Clearly if bosses aren't hitting as hard, warriors and paladins will be blocking a larger percentage of the damage. And obviously druids and death knights won't benefit from this buff.
Alanid Nov 2nd 2009 3:16PM
This doesn't really affect how tanks should gear up. It effects how healers heal. For example you avoid a huge hit, meaning healer will look somewhere else to heal, and BAM you take a huge hit. OR say you avoid a hit, but take 2 huge hits and almost get killed straight away... etc.
This is a change to make the damage dealt by bosses more even to make it easier on healers.
Treason Nov 4th 2009 8:02PM
You've exactly read that backwards: It greatly buffs bears and DK's
Currently, we have to stack stam stam stam stam stam and more stam, as we have these HUGE hits we are only mitigating with our armor.
After this nerf, we can stack avoidance again, as it will just reduce the frequency of hits of much smaller hits then we see in Heroic TOTC.
If I stacked dodge in TOTC instead of stam, I could be jibbed sometimes faster then lag would allow a heal to fix that situation. In icecrown, things won't hit THAT hard, so I can instead take off 300-600 stam and instead gem for avoidance, as 2 hits won't be instadeath for my anymore, so I can better do avoidance on the ones that do come in to lessen overall healer load.
Nathanyel Nov 2nd 2009 4:26PM
Gnosh: AP/SP don't have diminishing returns.
Treason: Only bad bears just stack Sta.
It will hurt bears especially hard, as the reduction happens after DR. Say the bear has 50% Dodge, a value where additional Dodge Rating/Agi doesn't give that much of a bonus anymore. Now after this calculation, it is reduced by 20%. Additional Dodge Rating would be calculated as if you still had 50% Dodge, so not much of an improvement anymore.
Plate tanks, on the other hand, do not bother about Dodge at all, even better equipped ones are hardly above 20%. They just stack Parry, Defense, or Block if they carry a shield and still have good avoidance values.
And _then_, there are boss debuffs like Sindragosa's http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/71056/frost-breath/ which reduces your chance to dodge by another 50% - short debuff and dispellable, but where this would remove just the max 5% Dodge left from plate tanks, it removes 30%+ Dodge from bears.
ratskinmahoney Nov 3rd 2009 9:41AM
The only way I can see that this provides a aprticular advantage/disadvantage to any given tank over another is if said tank has =20%.
On the other hand, if you do have
Marco Nov 2nd 2009 2:09PM
Isnt it just more simple to say:
Bosses now hit 20% more often, meaning that they dont have to hit 20% harder.
TBH i wouldnt mind a sunwell radiance for healers. Atm my resto shaman easily reaches 1000 mp5 in combat with Toc25 gear while casting. Add another 200+ mp5 while not casting. I never go oom. Never have to use a pot/mana tide unless i die before the end of the fight and get rezzed one way or another.
Blizzard wanted to nerf mana regen at the start of cataclysm. But i have never ever had real mana problems healing toc10/25 on either normal or hard mode.
Dave Nov 2nd 2009 3:02PM
This is NOT a nerf to bears. If anything, bears are the ones that come out of this looking the best. Better health totals and higher mitigation on bears (not as good as it used to be, but still stronger than warriors/paladins) combined with smaller boss hits will lead to bears continuing to do what they do best: soak damage. They'll likely be much better off comparatively to warriors and paladins, who can only stack block to a certain degree, and only then at the expense of most other stats.
Tom Nov 2nd 2009 2:09PM
Just to get it out of the way:
All tanks are being affected by this equally. Don't bother QQing about shield users - they lost 20% Dodge too.
Como Nov 2nd 2009 2:33PM
Not necessarily, while it is affecting all tanks, the effect is going to hurt druids and dk's much more. I'm not qq'ing, blizz has time to figure out how to deal with them but it definitely affects those classes more because of they way they tank.
Como Nov 2nd 2009 2:42PM
@JoeHelfrich: You really think they are going to make icecrown un-pugg-able? Have you played WoTLK yet, everything is pugg-able, and everyone will be in t9 gear a few days after 3.3
Gnosh Nov 2nd 2009 2:44PM
Ugh. According to who's math? IS there any math? Or are people just assuming that "-20% avoidance" isn't equal for all tanking classes because some have more SOURCES of avoidance than others? It's still 20%!