15 Minutes of Fame: Caitlin R. Kiernan, part 2

Not yet. I've expected them to, but so far they haven't, really. In part, that's because I don't generally write the brand of heroic, sword-and-sorcery fantasy you see in WoW. The fantasy I write is usually firmly grounded in this world. So, it's hard to see how Warcraft would lead me to ideas for stories or novels. I think, mostly, the two things are somewhat segregated in my head. Here is WoW, and over here is my writing. Also, there's that camp aspect of WoW I've mentioned, and my fiction rarely ventures into this sort of humor.
That said, though, I have often thought it could be great fun to write a short story or novel set on Azeroth. And I can't help but create elaborate backstories for all my characters and especially Shaharrazad. They just come to me, as I play. And I suppose that is me superimposing my own imagination, my own approach to fantasy, over WoW. Shaharrazad has not had a happy life, and is sort of a mess. She consorts with orcs, she drinks too much, she's bitter about having been sent away from Silvermoon, when all she really wanted was a life of leisure and magic. She has an uppity kid sister named Hanifah (another of my alts), whom she loathes. Hanifah is the "good" daughter, the one who became a paladin, instead of a warlock.
See? This stuff piles up, whether I go looking for it or not.
You've blogged about an uncertainty that Blizzard was fully aware of and comfortable with their adaptations of paganism and religion in the game. That's an area you deal with often enough yourself. What's your reaction to what Blizzard has shaped in WoW?Hard question to answer. And, for the record, I talk too much. It's an occupational hazard.
But, yes, this came up recently in my LiveJournal over the "Staff of Equinex" quest that you take out in Feralas. First, we have the intentional misspelling of "equinox," followed by "Samha" (Samhain), ""Imbel" (Imbolc), "Byltane" (Beltane), and "Lahassa" (Lammas, Lughnasadh). And, as a writer and practicing witch, it's hard not to wonder why Blizzard bothered so slightly changing the names of the four Greater Sabbats. I wasn't offended, maybe more amused than anything, since these are still obviously references to Wiccan holy days. Why even bother changing Beltane to "Byltane?" Of course, to be fair, we have the Christian holidays renamed, as well, though it's obvious that "Pilgrim's Bounty" is American Thanksgiving and "Winter Veil" has so many of the secular trappings of Christmas.
Truthfully, I think various pagan religions come off better in WoW than the Judeo-Christian ones, that the game casts them in a better light. There's something inherently pagan about the game, and I think that just makes sense. I'm not saying that because I'm pagan. I probably would have been happier had Blizzard created strictly fictional holidays and suchlike for the games, and they wouldn't have been universal to all races. The orcs and humans would not celebrate the same festivals, any more than taurens and draenei would. If Azeroth had its own traditions that did not simply mirror those of various real-world religions and cultures, it would be a more interesting place, undoubtedly. All the goofy Christmas and "Nobelgarden" (an amalgamation of both Easter and Ostara), sometimes I find it grating, but no, it doesn't actually bother me. I just wonder if Blizzard worries about the evangelical Christians criticizing the game for promoting paganism and wonder if that might account for the half-hearted attempts at disguising the names of the sabbats.
Transformation is at the heart of so much of your work and the characters you've created. Do you think that games like WoW currently hold or show the potential to hold the capacity to allow players to try on new roles and identities in a transformative way?
I do think the potential is there, yes, but I have to say that I see very, very few people taking advantage of it. Though WoW is presented as roleplay, and though there are even RP-dedicated servers and guilds, from what I've seen, only a tiny percentage of the millions of people playing ever actually roleplay. And I'm talking about immersive, simulationist RP, wherein you are partaking of a sort of improvisational theater. I adore this sort of RP, and I've gotten a little bit of it via Second Life (though, generally SL is a mess, and the less said about that the better).
In WoW, I went in expecting genuine RP, because, after all, it's advertised as an MMORPG and, as I've noted, there are servers set aside, supposedly exclusively for RP. But I quickly learned how rarely anybody bothers to RP in WoW, regardless of server. Instead of playing a blood elf or a dwarf or a troll and trying to see the world through the eyes of those races, instead of playing that role, you mostly have people who are merely being themselves, navigating a cartoon avatar through this fictional landscape, gaming. Indeed, I encountered actual hostility and contempt towards RP, as if it was something too twee or silly to take seriously. I was very angry, even bitter, about this at first, and it almost led to me giving up on the game after about a month. Because it just seems like such an awful waste. But, eventually, I came to accept WoW as what is truly is, a video game wherein players interact with other players, out of character, with very few people interested in being in character. Once I adopted that outlook, and dropped my RP expectations, I learned how to enjoy the game. I think it's much more honest to think of WoW as an MMOG, not an MMORPG.
Once you've had your fill of World of Warcraft, what's the game world you'd like to find yourself in? Modern, fantasy, sci-fi ...?
I'd love to see a good, intricate, hard SF, cyberpunk or steampunk MMORPG. Except maybe not quite as daunting as EVE Online. Also, a medieval China MMO, something like Jade Empire -- that would be marvelous. For the time being, though, I'm fairly happy with WoW, though I'm not the sort of player who is so enamored with the game that I won't point out what I perceive as shortcomings.
I'd love to see an MMORPG where players do roleplay, where the game more strongly encourages them to put on another skin, as it were, and become someone else. Where doing that was integral to getting through the game. The ability to interact with the game environment, NPCs and other players as your character would be necessary to succeed at the game. Mostly, more story, more roleplay, less game. That is, game that is obviously nothing but game. You can game on consoles -- though even there, I prefer games that do not constantly remind me I'm playing a game. Let me get lost in the fictional world, the way I do when I watch a movie or read a book. My ideal MMORPG would, essentially, be an interactive novel or movie, wherein the "players" constantly create a perpetual story.
Since you're known to roleplay as Nar'eth the Nebari in full, elaborate costume at SF cons, will we ever see you show up as any of your WoW characters at BlizzCon or other cons?Creating and being Nar'eth was such a huge undertaking, in terms of time, expense, and physical discomfort. I did it with the assistance of a professional SFX makeup artist, Andre P. Freitas of AFX Studios in Atlanta. The makeup alone, which was airbrushed, took about four hours. And then there was a steel-boned corset that made breathing difficult and contacts that blinded me when they were in. But it was worth it.
Anyway, yeah, sure. I would love to costume as a WoW character. I've even talked with various people about the problems that would be encountered. For example, it would be great to do a draenei, but there are a lot of mechanical and makeup problems that would have to be overcome. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to costuming. I did Nar'eth five times, between 2002 and 2004, and each time left me utterly exhausted. If I were to ever take on WoW costuming, I'd have to bring the same level of determination and obsession to it. Which means it'll probably never happen.
Caitlín R. Kiernan is the author of the award-winning novels, Silk and Threshold, and most recently, Daughter of Hounds and The Red Tree. Her short fiction has been collected in several volumes, including A is for Alien, Tales of Pain and Wonder, and the World Fantasy Award-nominated To Charles Fort, With Love.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Tolkfan Nov 4th 2009 1:23PM
I have no clue who this lady is, but if she's saying that Night Elves are as corrupt as Blood Elves, Orcs and Trolls are as noble as Humans and Dwarves and that Draenei would ally themselves with the Horde, then she has some huge lore gaps.
Ringo Flinthammer Nov 4th 2009 2:14PM
That's putting it mildly. She needs to play a dwarf all the way through Ulduman and then read up on all the stuff in Ulduar. Digging up Titan ruins is their big sin as far as many in the Horde are concerned (which is weird, since the Titans aren't a member of the Horde), but the dwarves were doing it for legit reasons, which culminate in Alagalon in Ulduar.
It turns out that the Tauren killing dwarven archeologists in Mulgore were trying to uncover information that eventually leads to saving the world, or not. Tauren religious zealots going "dwarves dig, we smash!" aren't in any way noble in that behavior.
And while Alliance players in general tend to respect Tauren, remember that Cairne ordered the Tauren to settle down after centuries of being nomads, even as his "noble" buddy Thrall dissolved all the orc clans except, conveniently, the one he belonged to.
And let's not even start down the road of Thrall and Cairne, besides being dictators, are either stupid or allowed the New Plague to be developed. The Apothecary Society's not exactly making a secret of what's going on, since they're experimenting on prisoners of war in the Brill inn and recruiting any wet-behind-the-rotting-ears corpse that wanders into town.
I'd love to hear what the dwarves have done comparable to anything the modern Horde have done. "Hey, they have shovels!" doesn't cut it.
bluerobin427 Nov 4th 2009 2:18PM
Honestly, I'd say the only real lore gap in the list is probably the Draenei one, and that's just because I don't know enough of the Draenor lore to remember the relationship between the Draenei and the Orcs.
Jido Nov 4th 2009 2:19PM
/agree
+ Bonus points for having such an avid imagination though ;)
Extrox Nov 4th 2009 2:30PM
The Dwarves are poking into territory that's not their own and get ganked. Big shocker.
One second, let me go dig up your front yard real quick. Given your logic, you wouldn't have any problems with me trashing your property. Who knows, maybe I'll find an Arrow head or something!
Sarcasm aside, this wrathgate argument is absolutely getting weak. If you want to hold the leaders responsible for a rogue faction, then by all means the Alliance are COMPLETELY to blame for Arthas. They knew what was happening obviously, he killed off an entire town and almost destroyed the Blood Elf capital.
So, the Horde has one cinematic dedicated to a fault in their system.
The Alliance have two expansion packs dedicated to theirs.
The Alliance have been the creators of their own problems. The entire Warcraft franchise is about them shooting themselves in the foot. Arthas, Illidan, the Horde (Draenei caused the Legion to find the Orcs, GG Blueberries), the Forsaken, the blood elves.
Honestly, the biggest threat to the Alliance is the Alliance itself.
bluerobin427 Nov 4th 2009 2:32PM
/sigh and of course someone posts a wordy post directly before me. Yes it's true that what the dwarves found HAPPENED to be helpful, but really it's a debate between the shamanistic "treat the land with respect" of the orcs/tauren and the more investigative approaches of the dwarves. Honestly in this case my personal mindset is with the dwarves, but the way they go about it is pretty ridiculous considering they just go more or less wherever they want and start digging without permission. My overall dwarf lore knowledge is pretty rusty right now, but the biggest offense I can think of right now is that a split in the dwarf clans a while back led to Ragnaros being summoned and a bunch of generally bad dark iron stuff happening. You can say the Ironforge dwarves can't be blamed for this, but since a lot of people lump trolls together I'm going to lump the dwarves =P
As for Cairne and Thrall... the Tauren were basically on the brink of extinction when Cairne had them settle down with Thrall's assistance. It wasn't like Cairne killed off any dissenters and took control, he was doing what was best for the Tauren as a whole. The Forsaken issue is one that I have kind of a hard time arguing. I REALLY want Sylvanas to be watching out for the greater will of the Horde etc, but I dunno. It WAS an independent, demonically influenced faction of the Forsaken that unleashed the New Plague, but the fact that it was researched at all is a bit sticky. At this point I just want to hope that it's a combination of curiosity, vengeance, and sheer independence (Forsaken are REALLY independent individuals, generally only a cohesive whole because they owe their freedom partially to Sylvanas) that lead to things being how they are. Now if you want me to start making pot shots at the alliance I can, but I think we've done this debate in the comments of at least three other posts that I can remember, so I'm going to leave it here (with my pretty so-so defense).
Ringo Flinthammer Nov 4th 2009 2:47PM
Bael Modan is in Tauren territory? Are Tauren lands now defined as "anywhere Quillboar are?" Because all of the attacks on Bael Modan are definitely not in areas the Horde controls -- just ask Mankrik's wife.
I don't know that all the trolls should be considered guilty of what the Atal'ai did in Zul'Gurub, but I certainly concede there are probably people who lump them all in together. (What we were doing in Zul'Aman, for instance, was never clear to me, beyond "hey, they're trolls" and "hey, they've got phat lewt.")
Cataclysm may flesh out the Ragnaros lore a bit better, but certainly, the Dark Irons summoning him and blowing up a chunk of the Eastern Kingdoms as a result is hardly anything to be happy about. I don't know that's a moral failing so much as an argument against dwarven mages, though ...
Note: I am perfectly happy to agree that night elves are pretty rotten, even if you take Staghelm out of the equation, and there are certainly a number of human leaders who behave abominably. But equating dwarves with them is just weird to me. It's history that ties them together, and little more.
Ringo Flinthammer Nov 4th 2009 2:49PM
And you do get props, Caitlin for embracing both sides of the blood elves, rather than insisting that it's just a few rogue elements in Silvermoon society. The dark edge of things is so omnipresent that most blood elves have to have come to terms with it. They might not always be wrong to do so, but they're certainly not ignorant of what's going on.
Personally, I think it adds depth to the race and makes Burning Crusade, essentially, a story centered around a single race, to the benefit of blood elf players. (Especially blood elf paladins.)
bluerobin427 Nov 4th 2009 3:00PM
Oh see, I was talking about Bael Dun, the dig site in Mulgore that you could probably see from Thunder Bluff if you really cranked your graphics settings. I think Bael Modan's probably just in an unfortunate place because of Theramore. I need to play through Theramore and figure out the in-game lore of the place because as far as I remember from WC3 it's just a home to horde-hating humans that are (used to be?) lead by Jaina's dad and could sink into the ocean for all I care. But that's just me =)
Nice, remarkably civil discussion we've got going here! Thanks for being a good sport!
Shade Nov 4th 2009 3:34PM
While she mentioned it briefly, there are arguments for everything, when you look at the lore. I started up a blog that specifically goes into the history of the various races and why they do what they do. It's still awfully young, but it's located here - http://greyshades.wordpress.com/
I've gone into the orcs briefly already, and I'm working on the night elves currently. Each race is going to be touched on in origins, and then looked at in greater detail as time goes on.
...there's also RP tips and such up the yinyang, but if you don't indulge in rp, you can skip those.
Tolkfan Nov 4th 2009 3:36PM
Yes, digging up some stuff out of the ground is pretty much as vile as:
-- willingly and as a whole race giving oneself to the Burning Legion (If you haven't read the book - shut up, please), and being rescued by humans who kicked their butts and put them in camps so they could detox from demon blood
-- willingly and as a whole race becoming magical vampires and sucking energy out of demons (well, not the whole race, the ones who were strong enough to overcome the addiction, remained High Elves loyal to the Alliance), and being rescued by Draenei and a Naaru that sacrificed itself after being tortured and drained
-- willingly and as a whole "race" embracing the ways of the Scourge (torture, murder, necromancy, the whole "death to the living" thing), producing a plague of their own, keeping a dreadlord as 2nd in command, and being saved by the Orcs
tim Nov 4th 2009 4:02PM
This woman said much more than the Alliance/Horde thing you decided to nitpick on. It was like 1/20 of the interview, if that. It was a good interview and she had plenty of interesting things to say, too bad you were only capable on zeroing in on her faction preference.
By the way: It's nice that you spent your time reading on all these books and outside sources of lore that tell you all about how the orcs are bad, but Blizzard still calls orcs a "peaceful people with shamanistic beliefs." I'm going to side with Blizzard on this one... since, you know, they're the ones who decide the lore.
Extrox Nov 4th 2009 4:17PM
"willingly and as a whole race giving oneself to the Burning Legion"
Incorrect, the Frostwolves took no part nor did the Mah'gar. So that right there ends that point. Not to mention, if if it had been true, played no part in the fact the Alliance welcomed a race that had a hand in the creation of it's sworn enemy. If the Draenei hadn't ever showed up, then the Horde wouldn't have been formed.
Another point to make, if a leaders actions automatically make all members within "aligned" then by that logc, then I'm sure the Germans would strongly disagree. As would any nation who's done things in the past they're not proud of.
"willingly and as a whole race becoming magical vampires and sucking energy out of demons "
You have somewhat of a point, but I don't call Arthas (you know, that human prince) destroying their source of power and then them having to find alternative means to survive "willingly". I call it survival. Not to mention their interactions with the Alliance lead to them being betrayed anyways. Really, the Alliance haven't give the B'elfs much reason to respect or side with them.
"willingly and as a whole "race" embracing the ways of the Scourge (torture, murder, necromancy, the whole "death to the living" thing), producing a plague of their own, keeping a dreadlord as 2nd in command, and being saved by the Orcs"
I'd be out for blood to if I went through the crap they did. Their Prince wiped out an entire town (hell, their entire kingdom) while he was still semi-sane and then did much worse after he full went off the deep end. Then after dieing they come back free only to find their former friends and family out to kill them. So they unite under a leader, whom Arthas created, and decide "hell with you guys". Rightfully so, they didn't do jack squat to deserve being insta-ganked but the Alliance didn't take the time to bother noticing an entire "race" that wasn't serving the Scourge.
So... as I was saying... the Game is about Alliance shooting themselves in the foot.
Tolkfan Nov 4th 2009 4:54PM
@Extrox
Apologies, apologies...
The Frostwolves slaughtered Draenei women and children just like any other clan. Their chieftan knew that it wasnt right, but he didnt lift a figer until it was too late. He was a coward, just like his son, who didn't do anything about a certain Dreadlord.
The Burning Legion used the Orcs only because of that that incident with Brox and Sargeras (time travel, meh). If it wasn't for that, the Orcs would have been slaughtered or conquered like any other race encountered by the BL.
You don't like that I'm blaming a whole race for the actions of a single individual and then you point out that humans and elves are responsible for Arthas and Illidan.
The High Elves are living proof that Blood Elves could have survived without sucking on demonic energies. And their "betrayal" was caused by their "interactions" with the Naga ;)
The Alliance doesn't care if the Forsaken have free will or not. They see a bunch of zombies living in an underground necropolis filled with abominations, tortured prisoners, labs with plague developed in them (not to mention the dreadlord).
The Forsaken claim that they hate Arthas and his Scourge, but they emulate him in almost every way.
Nick Nov 4th 2009 4:58PM
Huge lore gaps? You mean EFFING RIDICULOUS GAPING HOLES.
Extrox Nov 4th 2009 5:15PM
Ah, it's not so much that I'm trying to point out and say "Hah, I'm right, you're wrong"
The Arthas and Illidan examples are more of a "If we're going to go with this thinking then this situation falls into it as well" if that makes any sense.
As for the B'elfs, admittingly I could be quite wrong, I was under the impression they were betrayed and then joined the Naga afterwards. If it is the other way around, then quite understandable.
Urza Nov 4th 2009 1:25PM
That's a great headline picture. :)
bob Nov 4th 2009 1:26PM
I really doubt that crashing off of Durotar instead of Darkshore would have brought the Draenei into the Horde.
Jack Draven Nov 4th 2009 1:27PM
Very interesting read! Thanks!
Now here comes all the people that will flame this post because it is strictly impossible for any person who has achieved any level of fame to actually play WoW. I'm sure she has never even heard of it. Clearly this is just a publicity stunt arranged by her publishers.
uncaringbear Nov 4th 2009 5:29PM
In this case, it's pretty obvious that this lady is a genuine avid WoW player. However, I could see some B-list celebrity's publicist reading this column and thinking, "Hmmmm....". Is that awfully cynical of me?