Righteous Defense
lays out an intriguing argument for an idea that I still personally can't get behind: paladin stances.
The recent changes around
patch 3.3 have shined a light on paladin versatility, and basically,
paladins are forced to pay the hybrid tax three times over -- because they can do it all without limiting themselves, they can't do anything as well as other classes. So RD makes the suggestion: instead of letting paladins have all of their spells under any aura, it's time to narrow things down a bit.
Devotion Aura becomes tanking stance, gets
Righteous Fury's threat bonus added to it, and enabling it makes pallies lose some other abilities (
Avenger's Shield is RD's suggestion).
Retribution Aura becomes a DPS "stance," with added benefits and costs, and so on. By forcing paladins into a playstyle, you can give them extra power, because you've taken away versatility.
Unfortunately for those in favor, I don't think it'll ever happen. First of all, we already have a class in the game that
uses stances, and I think that this type of gameplay is too close for Blizzard's comfort to implement in the same way on paladins -- they want the classes to play different. Second,
the paladin class design has always focused on the versatility of being a hybrid. While paladins may want to limit themselves to see buffs, Blizzard has never shown an inclination to limit pallies' versatility just to make them more powerful. I like the idea of Righteous Fury's buff getting linked up to something else (it definitely seems like it's out there on its own as an arbitrary tanking buff), but paladins getting a fully implemented stance system doesn't seem likely at all.
Tags: avengers-shield, balance, buffs, class-balance, classes, devotion-aura, hybrid, hybrid-tax, limits, paladin, paladin-stances, pally, patch-3.3, retribution-aura, righteous-defense, versatility
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Raiding, Classes, Buffs
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
joel Nov 7th 2009 11:59AM
Maybe they could just remove the bonus healing from SoL/TbtL and the HoT/crit bonus.
You'd think the guys at Blizzard could think of that. >.>
Gerik Nov 6th 2009 11:05PM
"...they can't do anything as well as other classes"
That's where I stopped reading.
Dart Nov 6th 2009 11:16PM
This
kitterz Nov 6th 2009 11:15PM
What? RD wants the 'tanking' pally entering a defensive stance and lose the ability to cast Avenger's Shield? Okay...so he suggests deep protection pallys to simply not use a spell that is unique to their tree? That or it seems like he's suggesting a complete and total overhaul to the pally class right down to core mechanics and specs.
I disagree. I play a pally and think they're no where near in need of something that drastic.
JR Nov 7th 2009 10:26AM
Except that he didn't suggest this. In fact he suggested the exact opposite. The summary posted here at wow.com is wrong and, as most of the wrong information that is posted in this website, hasn't been corrected and probably never will. From the original post: "Make Devotion Aura the tank stance. Fold RF’s threat multiplier into it, make certain abilities being exploited by Ret/Prot or Holy/Prot pvpers dependent on Devo Aura, like Avenger’s Shield."
KronosIII Nov 6th 2009 11:31PM
And Ill comment again. Me playing as a war, I don't give stances to my greatest enemy. Which is the Pally.
Because pallys........I WILL SING YOU A SONG THAT YOU SEEM TO SING TO WARRIORS ALL DAY!
Pally-"Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better then you."
Warrior-".............WE HAS MORTAL STRIKES?!"
Pally-"I need to heal to kill you? Ill kite you all day if I want to"
Pally-"Anything you can tank I can tank better, I can aggro anything better then you."
warrior-"..............well we have.........SUNDER, that helps in DPS for other classes!"
Pally-"Oh that? Please.....I have over 9 buffs I can give to the raid using my stances and blessings. What buffs do you have?
Warrior- "Well.......battle shout and commanding shout..."
Pally-"OH, you mean that 2 min version of my 30 minute long buff blessing of might? And what commanding shout? Last I checked It doesn't stack to well with fel pact in the raid..........so no buffs?"
warrior-".................."
pally-"didn't think so......"
Pally-"Anything you can survive, I can survive better. I can survive anything better then you."
Warrior-"............"
Pally-" Oh.......I see you couldn't survive being in my shadow for so long. Sorry but true warriors summon yellow unicorns and put on glowing angel wings that sparkle yellow magic all over our foes."
KronosIII Nov 7th 2009 12:12AM
Warrior-"NEVER! I WON'T DARE YOU MAKE A MOCKERY OF WHAT WAR IS. WE WILL ONE DAY HAVE OUR DAY PALADIN! FOR WHEN THAT DAY COMES GET READY TO START WAVING YOUR STUPID FINGERS 40 YARDS AWAY FROM ME. WARRIORS WILL RISE AGAIN!
Paladin- We took allot of poo in the face in the past warrior. It was so bad that even our role was laughed at. Now at last this expansion has given us power beyond imaging. We will fight to the end to keep this.
Warrior- Oh really? Well I have just about every other class in the game behind my back on this one. They also said to get in the back and start waving your fingers again.
Paladin-...................
warrior-that's right, get used to the waving. Your joy ride is coming to a end very soon friend...
BradGamma Nov 7th 2009 8:31AM
Wow, that paladin must have killed you in 2 seconds if you are throwing this big a tantrum.
You know what paladin's dont get? Reliable Interupts, a 75% offensive healing debuff, a reliable gap closer (Give me hamstring + charge/intercept over freedom+PoJ ANY DAY), slowing effect, AoE fear, long-range stealth-removing shouts, fear/sap removal and immunity button, lolstorm. I wonder what class has all that while being able to pump out similar damage with good gear? hmmm
I PvP on my warrior, and PvE on my paladin, and I swear to god half the people who QQ all the time about paladin's are bg'ers who thought they could sneak up on a 40% health pally and pwn him, only to have him bubble and ruin YOUR WHOLE DAY.
KronosIII Nov 7th 2009 11:50AM
@ BradGamma
Now I ask........what if pallys had those abilities? Is that what you want? Well here is what happens
worldofwarcraft just became worldofpallycraft
Ya maybe I was too harsh saying I want only 1 spec being good. But honestly the class needs lots of work for balance.
I say get rid of bubble. Oh and shattering throw? It cost 25 rage to use and it requires battle stance. And just to use it you have to make sure you talent in Stance mastery.
Oh and I can't get more rage because you are bubbled at the moment, which gives me no rage.
And you can still manage to damage me while you are immune to everything.
To fix you either pay a large tax for healing or get rid of bubble.
WoWie Zowie Nov 6th 2009 11:43PM
pass
Nick S Nov 6th 2009 11:48PM
I don't really see Paladins as insanely overpowered in most areas of the game. The one place they do perhaps too well is battlegrounds, and that's due to the simplicity of the class (hey, I play one, I can say it).
You only have a limited toolbox, so the finesse required of a class with 3 or 4 times as many keybinds just isn't necessary to get some decent performance out of a Paladin. That same simplicity bites them in the ass in Arenas, particularly at high levels where mere high damage doesn't cut it anymore.
Upping the skillcap of Paladins by making their abilities more complex will solve way more problems than simply denying them access to a given ability without first initiating a nearly meaningless GCD. I don't care about whether I'm in Ret or Devo aura when I'm going into a battleground PvP encounter that will last perhaps 15 seconds. Forcing me to care by attaching a lot of other restrictions just seems clunky.
Eyhk Nov 7th 2009 12:04AM
And I remember Avenger's Shield being one of the selling points of "prot" paladins since we didn't have a range pull before. I don't think they should change paladins and I'm pretty sure they want to keep the diversity of different play styles.
Avan Nov 7th 2009 12:14AM
"By forcing paladins into a playstyle, you can give them extra power, because you've taken away versatility."
Hahahahahahahahahahaha.
This w-
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
No.
jeff Nov 7th 2009 3:07AM
Your forgetting one important thing, as far as how things are currently setup, we need the shadow, frost, and fire resist for tanking and helps raid as dps or holy if thats your spec, but... to fix this simply give rightous fury an on off switch that doesnt fucking reset randomly or on death, and cost half a mana bar to activate or accidently hit it durring a fight and suddently be OOM,
Rhidach Nov 7th 2009 12:52AM
Sorry, I need to hop on and correct one quick thing so I don't look like a *complete* dope: I said if they did "stances" to make AS only work in the "defensive stance," not be disabled in "defensive stance"!
Muse Nov 7th 2009 9:33AM
Wee bit late for that, unfortunately.
tomteboda Nov 7th 2009 1:02AM
" Devotion Aura becomes tanking stance, gets Righteous Fury's threat bonus added to it, and enabling it makes pallies lose some other abilities (Avenger's Shield is RD's suggestion)."
I think you've gotten this confused. Righteous Defense suggests that key abilities linked to certain roles only become active in particular auras, such as avenger's shield only working when running devotion aura. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for the tanking aura to lock out the tanking ranged pull.
What I dislike about this suggestion is that a paladin who does not delve deeply into a tree for a particular role is largely incapable of performing that role even with decent gear, outside of various group quests in the general world until they significantly outlevel the instance (even then the idea of managing to hold threat against dps'ers as a holy paladin wearing tank gear is .. at best.. laughable, never mind how fast we die!). We're already quite limited, particularly in PvE.
SheldonLock Nov 9th 2009 4:39AM
Pally Stances? NOOOOOOO!!!! My main is a Paladin, and she's a PALADIN for a reason. Because I DIDN'T want to deal with Stances and shit like that.
Unless Blizzard could just rename the "auras" to "stances", then that MIGHT be alright. Just renaming them would be fine. Be fucking with Paladins like that is NOT called for.
Righteous Defense is not right in the head or something. For him to come up with something as STUPID as that, he MUST be mental.
Broken_toes Nov 7th 2009 1:01AM
First I saw this i thought it would be brilliant, thinkin bout it for a good fast minute - what a stupid idea, we'll be warriors that can heal. If i'm honest yeah rightous fury needs to be shot of- don't get havin to change spec... then remember a ability just so i can tank (I'm one o them thats been guilty of not turnin it on... sorry for the wipes)
To be honest we have stances, its called dual spec- just has a longer cast time and cant be done in combat, sure we'll be ok with that.
On the topic o dual spec can anyone explain why i have to lose all my mana, but a warrior, DK, rogue suffers no penalty for changing spec???? Whats that about?
Crazylady Nov 7th 2009 1:26AM
dear mr schramm,
Are you f'n high?
There is no argument. The idea of stances for paladins is absurd. Hybrid tax has nothing to do with tanking because as someone mentioned already ALL TANKS ARE HYBRIDS!!! Stop bringing it up.