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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsThe argument for paladin stances
by Mike Schramm 
Nov 6th 2009 at 10:00PM
Unfortunately for those in favor, I don't think it'll ever happen. First of all, we already have a class in the game that uses stances, and I think that this type of gameplay is too close for Blizzard's comfort to implement in the same way on paladins -- they want the classes to play different. Second, the paladin class design has always focused on the versatility of being a hybrid. While paladins may want to limit themselves to see buffs, Blizzard has never shown an inclination to limit pallies' versatility just to make them more powerful. I like the idea of Righteous Fury's buff getting linked up to something else (it definitely seems like it's out there on its own as an arbitrary tanking buff), but paladins getting a fully implemented stance system doesn't seem likely at all.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Raiding, Classes, Buffs
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Mindaika Nov 7th 2009 1:24AM
"can't do anything as well as other classes."? I assume you mean "except healing, and tanking to the point that the other 3 tank classes are getting passed over for ToGC", right?
Chernabog Feb 27th 2010 10:36PM
Ignoring the flaws with several of the specifics, giving paladins stances wouldn't "de-hybridize" them, so to speak, because the class could still play multiple roles -- the definition of a hybrid class. Forcing a spec to do only one thing at a time wouldn't change the status of paladins as a hybrid class. The only way they could avoid being a hybrid would be by having three tanking trees, three dps trees, or three healing trees. The reason mages, rogues, and warlocks are not hybrids is because all of their specs do the same thing -- dps.
Avan Nov 7th 2009 1:51AM
But priests! Priests aren't hybrids! They're a pure healing class, with two healing trees over every other healing class!
Because the Shadow tree doesn't exist, you see.
I'm not responding to anything you said in particular, but I read this comment and thought of the countless throngs of idiots ready to scream about priests being a pure healing class. Shadow is a healing spec! There aren't two friggin spells in the HOLY tree that DEAL DAMAGE. Nope, priests are the only pure healing class because all they can do is heal and they have no way of ever hurting something ever.
/irrelevant rant
Dristan Nov 7th 2009 1:45AM
You've gotta love how even the most reasoned discussion about paladin play mechanics is assured to bring out the raving morons of the internet (yes I am talking about you KronosIII).
This entire discussion about "hybrid tax" is ridiculous. I don't want anyone reading this to think that I'm just another ret paladin bitching about nerfs to my "OP" class, I am a gamer who has serious concerns about weather or not blizz actually knows what they're doing when it comes to this favorite class of mine. They keep saying that they want us to be less homogeneous between our three specs but their solution seems to be right the opposite, instead of giving us reasons to stick to our respective spec trees they're forcing us to diversify between all three just to remain viable. The answer seems simple enough [and feel free to argue against this point I'd love to see what the rest of the paladins think], if you don't want ret going deep into prot to pick up the only utility left to us (our survivability) give us a reason to pour all of our points into retribution. Ok so it's a radical change but bear with me. Say that they added a talent that required 70 points to be put into retribution, then we could spend the last one on an awesome utility, something that would absolutely define the paladin playstyle like a distance closer or a massively improved avenging wrath that totally killed our ability to heal while active or something (ok poor examples but still, bear with me it's 2am here). Ok, so it's a buff and I'm sure people like KronosIIl would die of G.N.E.R.D rage right there on the spot but blizzard's ends would have been achieved, we'd be forced into a pure retribution playstyle and play like a pure dps class. I'm hoping that the promised expertise system in the upcoming Cataclysm expansion will be something like this but when blizz say things that imply they want to kill my role as a viable DPS class and make me a healer i get really really nervous.
Chris Nov 7th 2009 4:37AM
Hey, I'm all for Ret being subjugated into deep tree investment. Let's put the "bubble" into prot!
Vaulkner Nov 7th 2009 1:48AM
No, thank you.
As a former ret paladin, I was already uncomfortable with our similarities to dps warriors (similar effects/abilities to whirlwind, deep wounds, etc).
I think the paladin class and especially ret needs some serious work, but making us just like warriors isn't going to help. We'd just inherit that classes design flaws in addition to our own (last I checked, dps warriors were still grumbly about their dps - particularly arms, and blizzard is already dealing with a lot of problems caused by their stance mechanic).
The druid shapeshifting system and other such "transformation" mechanics introduce their own sets of problems, just like warrior stances do. These sorts of mechanics need redesign/replacement across the board imo.
I know blizzard just did a major overhaul of the paladin class in 3.0, but really - a class based on doing everything in big bursts (in every role) was shoddy design from the get-go. Our defining mechanics are auras with minute effects, seals/judgements (which were terrible before, but now boring and hardly special), blessings/hand spells which seem ununiform and haphazard, and the bubble which has earned us nothing but balancing headaches and community contempt since launch...
I know it's too much to ask for another class revamp, but it seems warranted lol. In any case, let warriors keep their mechanics. If I wanted to play a warrior that could heal, I'd roll one and bandage.
joshbuddha Nov 7th 2009 5:24PM
what do you mean paladins don't do anything as well as other classes? Paladins are one of the highest rated tanks period right now? The only spec a little behind others is Ret, and that has always been ret's issue is AoE is so intrinsic to the ret rotation it suffers a little single target.
Possum Nov 7th 2009 2:25AM
As I understand the hybrid tax you only pay it once and it's supposed to be the same for every class, you also only pay it on your dps spec, not healing or tanking. Forcing paladins into different stances for different rolls would make no difference to the tax as it makes no difference for warriors, druids, dks and any other hybrid. As for saying that paladins are underpowered..i'm not sure what game you're playing? Your dps may be slightly underpowered in a raiding situation but that is the intention of the hybrid tax, to make you do slightly less damage than a pure dps class or in other words 'working as intended'
Perhaps there is a massive gap between paladin's dps and other classes in a raid setting but if there is this is the first i've heard of it.
Also this "they can't do anything as well as other classes." no, just no.
goopay2002 Nov 7th 2009 2:35AM
Major fail. Avenger's Shield is a TANK move. You can only get it by following the Protection talent tree. Why the hell would you take it out of the tank "stance"? RD should just not suggest anything.........ever again.
JR Nov 7th 2009 10:29AM
Except that he didn't suggest this. In fact he suggested the exact opposite. From the original post: "Make Devotion Aura the tank stance. Fold RF’s threat multiplier into it, make certain abilities being exploited by Ret/Prot or Holy/Prot pvpers dependent on Devo Aura, like Avenger’s Shield."
goopay2002 Nov 7th 2009 12:28PM
Well then I apoligize. The wording in the article on this site states doing away with Avenger's Shield. I can admit, I have not read the orginal article, just the paraphrasing on this site. So, again, wow.com guys, your gettin a little sloppy. I don't mean to offend any of you guys, but you have to make sure your articles are well written and clear, otherwise how do we know we can trust you for WoW news?
Broken_toes Nov 7th 2009 2:41AM
Man this whole thing has become a QQ about crap pretty quick.
I 'm fairly sure i count my pally as my main, just because i like being able to tank/heal when i feel like it- kinda gets boring being plain dps, never really got into retri- tried it for awhile, but kinda got the feeling it was for those that couldn't learn boss tactics/liked standing in fire (oh please QQ THAT) but tbh as a keen pally player, and a rogue, and a dk, and a shaman, I can see the problem with the class- bubble.
Sure its really, really nice to be able to stop pretty much all damage when you feel like it (CD allowing) - but really, hows it fair to other players? especially in pvp realms.
One thing i never do on my rogue (dk is a bit different- wears plate after all) is take on a pally, spesh if they're ret or prot, i just know i have no chance- or at best a really long fight on my hands, i do tend to stalk a player on my rogue waitin for the time i know i can win (my gank limits 3 times less i have a grudge)- but with a pally its completly different, is his bubble on CD is his LoH on CD... you just dont take that on unless you know you outgear them or out level them (or theyre afk).
Remove bubble- or limit it, there isn't a reason for it really being in the game- only time i use it is when i'm healing and theres a problem with tank/me over aggro'n. I'm sure others love to use it for killing a gnome (they need a cull) ... actually i use it then... but yeah, take bubble away or nerf it, nerf it hard- it needs to be done.
Don't pay attention to some crappy, attention seeking post from some pally whishing they rolled warrior- Pallies tank fine, pallies heal fine, pallies DPS fine. Nerf bubble, we shouldn't need this 2nd, 3rd life garbage- no other class does, sure shammies and locks have a similiar thing, but you kill a shammie and he ankhs, what you do? you dont go "OMFG hes alive again!" no you just one shot him cos he came back with barely any health and mana and no buffs.
Pally bubbles then self heals... your thinkin "ffs im on half health" (only so much a bandage can do, unless you can heal yourself by other means) , get him down a bit more- he LoH's ... "ffs im almost dead look at him, bugger this im vanishing". Sure there will be plenty QQ about that, plenty o umpities that think thats ok, that thats the way to go- but really its plain silly- GET RID OF BUBBLE!
Killchrono Nov 7th 2009 2:44AM
While I honestly don't think it's a bad idea to maybe review paladin skills and how they cross over between each of the 3 specs, I think this would require too major of an overhaul. We've already gone through a craptonne of changes in Wrath, to go through another craptonne would take too much time from the dev team and may do more harm than good.
Considering I've seen debates over how broken and outdated warrior stances are, I think people should be looking at those and figuring out how to fix that system before they even suggest tacking it onto another class. I don't blame them - I play both a pally and a DK and even I admit warriors get the short end of the stick with stances in comparison to auras and presences.
Azleus Nov 7th 2009 4:01AM
While I havent played much LotRO myself, I've heard that there is a hybrid class that can both heal and dps, but to ensure they can't do both very well at the same time, they have a balance of sorts, do dps and your damage gets better at the cost of the power of your healing spells and vice-versa.
It's an interesting idea that I think would make paladins more interesting to play, balancing on three axis: threat/mitigation, damage and healing.
Redielin Nov 7th 2009 4:05AM
I think they do need to make it so Pallies aren't so versatile regardless of spec. Choosing to tank, heal, or DPS means you should give up something. Right now, Pallies don't give up all that much.
Having said that, I think that stances are not the way to go about it, simply from a 'flavor' standpoint. Stances don't even do all that much to restrict ability use, especially in PVP (unless you did something crazy like took half the pally's mana away when he stance-danced)
Instead, they need to decide which iconically overpowered Paladin abilities they want to keep baseline, and which ones they want to add deep into the talent trees. They could also do moves like they were looking at with sacred shield, where all Paladins have a baseline version, but Holy gets the full effect through talents. This could help preserve some of the versatility and uniqueness without making Paladins highly defensive in all stances.
All in all, I think there's a lot more work to be done on this class. I think Blizzard underestimated what would happen to the Paladin class when they buffed its ability to tank and DPS, while including healing abilities in both of their non-healing trees. It just seems patch after patch with this xpac, when one thing is nerfed, another little nugget of cheapness raises its head with this class.
I think they need to make some of the core defensive abilities high end holy talents. I think part of the problem here too is that Holy just isn't an enticing spec, especially for PVP. Put that survivability in the Holy tree, remove prot from PVP until this expansion pack is over, and make ret work to stay alive like the rest of us.
And Rets, if there really is a weakness with the ability of your class to kill people in PVP, then nothing will make that clear to the devs (and the playerbase) faster than a nerf to bring your survivability down to the level of us mere mortals. Some way to deal with spellcleaves besides using bubble-of-gg-warlock would help this class greatly.
Chris Nov 7th 2009 4:30AM
"because they can do it all without limiting themselves, they can't do anything as well as other classes."
BULL. SHIT.
Riltia Nov 7th 2009 6:57AM
My opinion of Paladins and Druids is that they can do all 3 roles (Druids technically have 4) to the point where they are incredibly good at it - better than others at times. And that is where the problem is. The paladin has all these abilities like Hand of Reckoning (very good when levelling, you can sometimes take 30%+ of a mob's health with it), Lay on Hands, Divine Protection etc, but seemingly few weaknesses. I guess if you keep a Paladin at range, he's pretty useless once his CDs are blown, but by then you'll be in trouble anyways.
But! We have Cataclysm coming soon, and with it basically a complete rewrite of existing classes (or at least their talent trees), so maybe we'll see all the classes finally getting the balance they deserve.
Aelio Nov 10th 2009 7:12AM
Now one question, imagine a 10 man raid where u take 2 paladins, both tanks, so they both HAVE to use the dev aura so they can keep aggro. Stupid if u wanna use fire res aura (no shamie in raid) but u cant cause else u wont keep aggro, if that will be implemented then GJ BLIZZ to another not needed BS.
Muse Nov 7th 2009 9:30AM
I was nodding and smiling until the "pallies lose some other abilities (Avenger's Shield is RD's suggestion" with Devotion aura.
Erm, Avenger's Shield is a tanking talent in deep prot tree. Why would it NOT be available in Devotion Aura stance?
Zinn Nov 7th 2009 9:37AM
"because they can do it all without limiting themselves, they can't do anything as well as other classes."
I am sure people have said this already but... woot? o.O Paladins are (at least while typing this) completely kickass at healing, tanking and dpsing. And wait that's not it, they're completely kickass at being all these things at once. Holyprot, retriholy and other crazy hybrids commonly seen in pvp are proof of this. I am sure whoever writes the RD-blog is making a joke.