Blizzard: Arenas were a mistake.

He begins by saying that he wishes that the servers had been more stable at launch, and that there had been more of them, but he says that in terms of design, Arenas were the single biggest mistake in WoW's history.
Says Pardo:
Pardo indicates that most of the changes to the game since launch have been a success -- the shrinking of raid sizes, the addition of Heroic dungeons, etc -- but that Arena has been a huge headache for Blizzard and players alike. He goes on to say that if he had the choice, he'd either go back to WoW's beginnings and change the fundamentals of class balance, or, barring that, would nix the decision to add Arenas during the development of the Burning Crusade expansion.We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.
A pretty candid statement about a pretty controversial topic. It's good to see that Blizzard understands that the implementation of Arenas was a mistake for a game like WoW. Of course, Pardo also says that they can't just axe Arenas completely, at least not yet, so we may be stuck with them for a while. Sorry about your PvE burst damage, guys.
You can read the full interview with Rob at the Warcry Network. It's not all about Arena, I promise.
Filed under: The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Arena, Hardware
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 9)
marco Nov 13th 2009 6:12PM
@Zamn
You mean, what they're doing right now? Besides CC, they're also implementing my idea in tiny ways. For instance, when mages in arena deep freeze they stun you. In 3.3, against bosses (stun immune) it does damage.
Those are the changes I refer to. That way, PVPers and PVEers won't fight with each other about "balance." Both ends of the spectrum will be balanced separately.
SithLlenniuq Nov 13th 2009 6:44PM
If I am reading this right, you say there should be a different talent tree for PVP and PVE? Would this be similar to a duel spec? Or would it be if your on a PVP realm you would have a certain spec tree and on a PVE realm a completely different spec tree?
While complex the biggest hurdle I would see is when someone transfers to a different type of realm.
Also this would affect the battle grounds as well, where there is a mix of PVP and PVE realms in it.
Of course this is all if I am reading you right.
Rilgon Nov 13th 2009 6:48PM
No, how it would work is simple. Every talent and ability has a PVP function (how it works against other players in world PVP/in BGs/in Arena) and a PVE function ( how it works everywhere else). Players would choose their preferred tooltip (PVE or PVP) from an interface option, and if they want to see the other one, there'd be a "Hold Shift to see the PVP functionality." flag kinda like Dr. Damage has for healing/damage spells like Holy Nova or Penance.
Yes, it may take a decent amount of time to lock the balance for both down, but gee, we have an expansion coming soon that is going to change the entire face of the game - what better time to ACTUALLY balance the game for EVERYONE?
Avan Nov 13th 2009 7:27PM
They've already said that they aren't going to do this. They want spells to behave the same in PvE and PvP, with the only notable exception being Replenishment.
In theory, it would make balancing easier. In practice, how will the players know what their abilities do in PvP while outside of an arena?
It's not so simple.
marco Nov 13th 2009 7:34PM
Avan...yes, they have said that before. They have also gone back on what they've said (see faction transfers and PVP realm transfers). Also see CC (50 second sheep in PVE, 10 seconds in PVP). A neat little trick was what they did with deep freeze. If you didn't read my previous message, basically it does damage vs permanently stun immunes (ie, raid bosses) and otherwise stuns the frozen target (PVP application primarily).
Talk about -not- separating PVP and PVE.
Rilgon Nov 13th 2009 7:43PM
"In practice, how will the players know what their abilities do in PvP while outside of an arena?"
By holding shift? Reading comprehension = pro tier.
And just because Ghostcrawler is too stupid to realize that it's the only way to achieve real balance for both PVE and PVP doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. Hopefully the fact that Pardo is so regretful of Arena is a sign that something like this will happen.
Literaltruth Nov 13th 2009 8:22PM
I've always thought the most elegant solution would be to have an extra tab at the side of the Talent Tree pane that switches between PVP and PVE specs. When you switch to that tab you still have access to all your three tress but with the tooltips changed to reflect their PvP values rather than their PvE values. These PvP spec values and talents can be changed by the devs to balance PvP without altering the PvE values. They could even grey out certain talents in either the PvP or PvE trees if they don't want them to be available to the other spec.
This way everyone effictively gets to have an extra "PVP" spec that you automatically get switched into for Arena matches and possibly BGs. I'd personally have it so that when you started your first competitive PVP event (i.e. the first time you queue for Arena or a BG) the game brings up the talent pane with a "You are about to enter a competitive PVP match. Please set up your talents for PvP").
This also has the added bonus of removing a discrepency from the game - where pure classes currently can afford to have a seperate PvP spec with dual-spec and hybrid classes probably need both their specs if they PvE so that they can switch to Heals/Tank/DPS as their raid requires. While you may not mind switching and paying up the gold if you are serious about arena , it would be nice to have a PvP spec for things like WG or BGs where you may not have the time or want to spend the gold switching specs back and forward.
Suzaku Nov 15th 2009 3:42AM
I played Dungeon Fighter (a game where all the abilities are basically talent-tree based) for a while, and that's what they've basically done.
Seperate "rules" for PvE and the PvP Arena. When in the arena, your stats are roughly balanced with your opponent (IE, a level 10 player will have similar health and take similar damage to a level 60 player). Several gameplay mechanics, such as long combos and air-juggling, are reduced, with players becoming "heavy" and falling to the ground after a certain number of hits. All abilities have seperate functions and stats/formulas for the arena, which can be seen at any time by pressing a hotkey (you can toggle between short & long tooltips and arena & pvp tooltips). It seems to work well, without being confusing.
And it allows the developers to balance the classes for PVP content and PVE content seperately, so changes to PVP won't adversely effect PVE, and vice versa.
talkingmike Nov 13th 2009 6:00PM
Hoo boy, they've created a pile of gasoline with this one.
This reminds me of the recent "hybrid tax" term that GC just coined; it's not new information and something we have known for a while, yet when it's articulated by the designers, the players start pointing and saying "I told you so!"
garth Nov 13th 2009 6:02PM
god i hope they remove em. they made bgs obselete exept for getting allitle honor for some gear which u can buy with 100 arena points anyway, and i hate waiting for 5 people to be on to do em and omg talk about unbalanced seriously i could go on and on. screw arenas
Alanid Nov 13th 2009 6:01PM
I can remember on of the dev's saying at some point that arenas were meant to be just a fun addition for your spare time. But that turned on it's head when they started to give some of the best gear from arena in TBC. I love pvp, but I hate arena since I feel it's far too competitive. I may try it again in the near future, but probably not what with rated battlegrounds coming in Cataclysm.
Rainee Sue Nov 13th 2009 6:01PM
I won't go so far as to say competitive PvP has wrecked the game entirely, but the way they implemented it and the massive influence it's been given over PvE balance (if anyone's ever been nerfed in the arena to preserve the raid experience, I've missed it; even if it's happened, it's not nearly as prevalent as the opposite) has been a complete wreck.
They're right, it's way too ingrained now to get rid of it, but it is nice to see the admission that the arenas are a huge source of PvE balance issues -- any minor imbalance gets magnified in the microcosm of the arena, and anything neat, cool or fun immediately gets turned into a ridiculous advantage by arena players and has to get nerfed to uselessness or taken out.
TL;DR version: Balancing PvE and arena sucks, PvE is usually the side that suffers, and PvP was the one that was added after the fact. IAWTdeveloper.
dcnblues Nov 16th 2009 4:03PM
This isn't just a WoW thing. Many online games had PvP 'tacked on' and then went through an incessant cycle of 'balance' nerfs that negatively impacted the PvE game, all for a section of the playerbase that didn't even exist before PvP was added. I cite City of Heroes as an example, which after SEVERAL years worth of major patches and content releases, still doesn't have PvP that attracts more than a small percentage of players, is STILL subject to min-maxing and griefing (drone teleporting, anyone?), and has resulted in more nerfs to the game than all of the other 'balance' issues combined. The devs are trying hard to make things fun for everyone, but ultimately, they end up just pissing everyone off, when the topic of PvP 'balance' comes up.
I'm not saying that the PvP folks aren't a valid section of the playerbase, but I AM saying that a game designer should never change a game to recruit people they may have initially overlooked. If you want to appeal as a PvP game, then design the game with that in mind from the beginning.
Otherwise it becomes a battle between the PvE players and the PvP players, and the developers have to bounce back and forth between them to 'placate' whichever group feels it's getting short-changed. This in turn makes everyone (PvE and PvP alike) hate the devs for losing sight of the game itself.
In my mind? PvP should be either designed in at the outset, and the classes written up with that in mind, or implemented in such a way as to encourage teams and large groups where different classes can synergize each other's talents and abilities against their foes, rather than one-on-one jousting which will never be 'balanced' across different classes.
yosh Nov 13th 2009 6:02PM
Say what?!? Arenas are the only reason I kept playing wow. Battlegrounds require little intuitivity, and so do Raids. It's just the same old dance without any real change. Arenas give the thrill of being so small, not knowing what you will face. Ever tried to take a hunter to an arena and succeed? It really tests your skill to the max. So excuse me, but I dont think arenas were a mistake, they might just need a little... makeover?
marco Nov 13th 2009 6:09PM
"Ever tried to take ON a hunter to an arena and succeed?"
Fix'd for you and your facerolling class.
mitch Nov 13th 2009 6:24PM
lol, are you serious? Never tried Hunter/Pally I see.
Angus Nov 13th 2009 6:25PM
Once upon a time they were a laughingstock, now they make up part of one of the best teams.
Druids were gods in BC. Warriors and Rogues were darn close.
Heck the only classes to traditionally be crud are shaman.
Volkrin Nov 13th 2009 6:51PM
Even Shamans had their time in the sun for a significant portion of Vanilla. Unless you're just speaking exclusively about arena here, in which case never mind me.
EZ Nov 14th 2009 10:29AM
great....so lets take yosh, and the 150 or so people that are just like him, and give them their own realm so we can have our game back.
nothing personal yosh, but you're in the minority now buddy!
Moonkinmaniac Nov 13th 2009 6:03PM
I agree, Arena killed the battleground which was one of the funnest things in WoW. At least imo.