Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsBlizzard: Arenas were a mistake.
by Michael Sacco 
Nov 13th 2009 at 5:50PM
He begins by saying that he wishes that the servers had been more stable at launch, and that there had been more of them, but he says that in terms of design, Arenas were the single biggest mistake in WoW's history.
Says Pardo:
Pardo indicates that most of the changes to the game since launch have been a success -- the shrinking of raid sizes, the addition of Heroic dungeons, etc -- but that Arena has been a huge headache for Blizzard and players alike. He goes on to say that if he had the choice, he'd either go back to WoW's beginnings and change the fundamentals of class balance, or, barring that, would nix the decision to add Arenas during the development of the Burning Crusade expansion.We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.
A pretty candid statement about a pretty controversial topic. It's good to see that Blizzard understands that the implementation of Arenas was a mistake for a game like WoW. Of course, Pardo also says that they can't just axe Arenas completely, at least not yet, so we may be stuck with them for a while. Sorry about your PvE burst damage, guys.
You can read the full interview with Rob at the Warcry Network. It's not all about Arena, I promise.
Filed under: The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Arena, Hardware
Reader Comments (Page 8 of 9)
Sinthar Nov 18th 2009 11:24AM
Hate to tell you mate, but the 'one class being popular' is EXACTLY the situation PVP arena balances have created. Notice the pally influx at the start of wrath. Heard of FOTM due to the nurf/buff cycle CAUSES by arena. Notice certain classes vastly underrepresented in arena's. Seen how (for example) locks were awesome in TBC, then in Wrath they were free HK's for anyone (almost). This is EXACTLY what PVE'ers complain about.
If Arena is a check and balance mechanism (as you state) its completely and utterly broken.
zweitblom Nov 14th 2009 4:16AM
Arena, meet the Dodo. Next in line: vehicle fights.
Nagi Nov 14th 2009 4:23AM
So does this mean I can FINALLY have a stable class and spec without having to get nerfed into the effing ground as soon as I settle on something just because some arena baby cries about how it's unbalanced in that ONE single comparatively minor aspect of the game?
I've gone from beast mastery hunter to arcane mage to affliction warlock to ret pally to prot pally to destro warlock to resto druid now over the course of the last two expansions...seriously, can I PLEASE have some stability, now that Blizzard has realized that the reason for probably 80% of player woes was a massive screwup on their part? Please?
I liked affliction. I want it back. For more than a month.
Nagi Nov 14th 2009 9:23AM
As a bit of an addendum, I really do not have a problem with PvP, necessarily. I run battlegrounds on occasion, and even tried leveling an alt on a PvP server until childish griefers with geared 80s started camping lowbie areas and made leveling utterly impossible for a complete month. The issue, however, is that in my opinion, PvP works best in the same way that PvE works best: out in the world and in large, assorted groups. The latter is especially true; the classes SHOULDN'T all be able to stand evenly against each other in 1-versus-1 situations, they should suit certain roles in a PvP group just like they do in PvE raids. The healer should be good at healing their teammates, not putting out equal DPS with the rogue and mage. Teams should be strategizing and using what classes and class specs they have in their group to greater strategic effect than running randomly at the enemy because they're all just indiscriminately DPS'ing. It's what, honestly, makes Warhammer Online PvP FUN and WoW PvP kinda...messy, and detrimental to other aspects of the game.
And herein lies the problem with arenas. It's not a random world encounter. It's not a large-scale battle. It's not the sort of event the game was DESIGNED around. It's a forced, dare I say artificial 2-versus-2 or 3-versus-3 or 5-versus-5 situation that requires that all classes, regardless of their intended roles and functions, be bent and broken and hammered into niches they DON'T FIT INTO. The way Blizzard warps the classes in order to "balance" them for arena isn't even balancing them. It truly is BREAKING them, making them in many cases completely non-functional in PvE or battleground situations. It actively and frequently breaks the way both PvP and PvE were intended to function by Gerry-rigging, or trying to Gerry-rig, every class and spec into a generic and equal DPS tree while simultaneously attempting in vain to retain some semblance of their original group role.
minttunator Nov 14th 2009 11:06PM
Yeah, this is probably the main reason why Arena is a failure - that perfectly good and fun PVE specs are still to this day being destroyed because of PVP balance that will never be achieved. =(
Dragoniel Nov 14th 2009 5:36AM
Well, I for one play this game purely for PvP. And I'm playing on a PvP server, I am paying to be able to PvP. And I hate every change made for PvE balance just as much as PvE lovers hate changes for PvP purposes.
Yes, I'm a raider, I'm clearing end-game content without much problems. And I still find PvE mind numbingly boring. Only thing that makes it halfway worth attending is an awesome guild and PvE gear which is essential for my PvP progress.
Simple as that.
Sinthar Nov 18th 2009 11:24AM
Changes for PVE balance? WTF? Has it actually ever happened?
Azradesh Nov 14th 2009 5:53AM
There's a simple fix to all this, just have every spell and ability work differently in PvP.
eg: Polymorph: Turns target into a sheep for 10secs in PvE, 4secs in PvP.
Jariaji Nov 14th 2009 7:55AM
Well this was obvious to all who were playing back in classic when Arenas were first announced for BC. Blizzard went through Classic trying unsuccessfully to balance PvP around 10v10, 15v15 and 40v40 battlegrounds, then they decide to try and balance PvP instead around 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5...It was appallingly apparent to most unblinded people at the time that it was nigh on impossible, especially if you couldn't balance it around bigger numbers. It was also apparent that some classes such as resto druids and paladins would have a huge advantage in arenas over other classes, and it amazed me that Blizzard didn't see it. The only way to have balanced arenas would have been to completely redesign how each class operates, and that would have affected the PvE players, so they never did.
Gnumamma Nov 14th 2009 8:03AM
Wow I've never really realised that pvp-balancing caused this much frustration for people, now I feel bad for always compaining on vent about about counters. I guess I've always thought of them as negligible, sorry.
Anyway I'm a PvPer. Raiding has never worked out for me, it stresses me out to have have to be online at certain times, have my gear/dps min/maxed and to always be judged and evaluated. What keeps me playing are battlegrounds, duels and 'world pvp'. Arena used to be a love interest of mine aswell.
I was going to write a long paragraph detailing what, imo, is wrong with pvp but then I'd just be missing the point wouldn't I? From reading the other replies I think I can deduct that PvE-players are in a huge majority and it would be stupid of blizz to not focus on that aspect of the game.
I just realised that my post turned out nothing like the elogy to my memories of arena and Arathi Basin I had planned, but I spent 15 minutes writing this and will therefore post. :]
Sinthar Nov 18th 2009 11:23AM
Finally a PVP'er who has some introspection and intelligence beyond their beloved Arena. I am a PVE'er, but i sympathise with your post.
I would like to comment that a casual guild for raiding may well be better - from your post it seems you were in quite a hard core guild for raiding. My guild has no such pressures, although arranging raids for particular times is always going to be an issue.
Personally i dont want Blizz to remove anything from the game, just stop making them affect each other. That way we keep both our favourites going - world PVP, BG's, PVE AND arena.
kunu56 Nov 14th 2009 10:02AM
ye, there are some balance problems .
ex, to when a duel with your warrior ..you need like 5 eyes and 16 finger to kill that damn ****** mage .
but Even if blizzard itself think there is no balance ...it still the best mmo now to play as PvP or PvE .
http://www.wowguidesandtip.blogspot.com
Smileypants Nov 14th 2009 11:37AM
I really love all the insanely complex solutions that everyone keeps proposing to the arena problem.
Here are my two cents.
With regards to balance we have two major problems: one is a numbers game (damage done/damage resisted/damage healed); the other is a "tactical game" (for lack of a better term this game involves the actual functions of certain spells/abilities: ie. Blink, Shadowstep, Frost Nova, etc.). If you ask me the numbers game is an easy fix (well easy as long as it is possible to program it: I am no programmer): all you have to do is change the coeffecients for damage/resistances/healing for PvP. This way we could also possibly do away with resilience as a stat.
Now as for the tactical game, the problem is a little tricker but so far Blizzard has been able to figure it out in some cases. Make slight modifications to the ways certain spells affect their targets: ie. CC only lasts 12 seconds on the first cast and is subject to 3 second diminishing returns until it is resisted (I think those numbers are right, my memory might be off). Granted I think this is still a tricky problem and will involve a lot of creative problem solving on the dev. team's part.
The last problem is why people do arenas. Like it or not there is a substantial player base that really does enjoy PvP. I in fact bought this game because of the PvP element that was missing in other MMO's upon WoW's release. As it stands if someone wants to PvP and hold a competitive chance in BG's and in world PvP against his opponents then he needs to have the top gear to get that edge and the only way to get that gear is for him to compete in arenas. Now this problem ties into the other one because people are in a sense forced to play arenas and the highly competitive nature of the arenas which the big rewards drive forces the devs to make sure they are balanced to a tee or else people will get upset over losing an unfair match -- think of having really corrupt referees in the Superbowl.
Now the way to fix this last problem is simple: remove the big rewards for arenas so people will not be forced to play arenas in order be competitive in world PvP and BG's. But the devs can't do this without offending or hurting a portion of their player base; so thus all of these other problems turn on a PR or customer service problem. In order to fix this problem it is simple: Blizzard just has to be men about this and accept they might upset the minority of hardcore arena goers by taking away their large gear reward. Now this doesn't mean that those players get nothing; but Blizzard just needs to change the incentive for competiting in arenas altogether. Once Blizzard can change the incentive for arena competition then they can begin to fix the balancing issues. If arena play is not the focal point and end-all-be-all of WoW PvP, then and only then can blizzard relax the magnifying glass on small scale PvP balance -- which as we have determined is the crutch of overall game balance.
trekker Nov 14th 2009 11:54AM
here's a solution so easy i cant believe they havent done it: heard of dual spec? give them a third optional pvp only spec then they can go nuts on nerfing and balancing pvp without affecting most of the non pvp game. Want the games to last longer? cut all damage by 1/2 or 2/3... whatever. these are things other mmo's have been doing for years.
Sbdkiller Nov 15th 2009 1:22PM
in my opinion, wow's biggest mistake wasnt arena, but arena gear. It caused the uprising of an amazingly obsessive, elitest group of pvp junkies that wont arena with you unless you have 900 or above resil. I dont know about the other servers, but they plague mine
Goran Nov 14th 2009 12:35PM
For those of you who talk about removing the arena, here is another quote from the interview with Mr. Pardo:
"It's tricky, now that we've gone down that road, because we have a passionate, large audience that enjoys it - the Arena, the e-sport - so we can't just chop off that head. We can't just say, "We fouled up and will go back to how it used to be before," because we have a really passionate audience that wants it in the game."
So there it is. Arena will stay and we just have to deal with it. Maybe with the help of the suggestions posted here.
saraquel Nov 14th 2009 12:40PM
There is no question that arena involves a higher skill cap than most portions of the game. It is fine that most people don't want to get involved in that.
Just balance rewards so that Arena participation is competitive with BG participation, but not greatly superior to it. If BGs rewarded about 80% of what the same time spent in Arena did, and had access to the same gear, I don't think people would complain too much about the existence of arena.
As for PvP changes affecting PvE, keep making them, but only the largest stuff. 3.0 DKs and ret needed to be fixed, but RMP can continue being slightly OP, and those who arena can deal with that as an enduring feature of the game. (No, I don't play an R, M, or P).
Genozide Nov 14th 2009 12:45PM
I agree, KILL Arena and please stop messing with my PVE experience for PVP. There is nothing that makes me more angry then when I read that such and such talents get nerfed to make a small percentage of people that play arena happy.
ryusan Nov 14th 2009 1:16PM
I think arenas should be a bonus, and character balance should never be determined by the arenas. If DKs are the best characters for arena then let every Arena Junkie become a DK. If the whole thing is filled up with dks.. so be it.
PvE should be the only factor for a character balance.
Alveredus Nov 14th 2009 2:18PM
Arenas were, IMHO, better handled in City of Heroes, although rarely played due to a lack of incentivization.
They made it clear from the launch of their Arenas that the game was designed for groups of 4-8 players. In PvP areas, anyone who underperformed outside of groups was told, "Get a group." Any nerfs were targeted at people who grossly overperformed outside of groups.
However, because their arenas were designed as "every man for himself", instead of playing your character, your character became an invisible, floating avatar who could speed around a map issuing commands to pets. Basically, imagine Warcraft 1-3 but floating around the battlefield as a "first person" general commanding units.
IMHO, arenas would work best if:
A) You play a "general" commanding pet units, in the style of WC 1-3 and Starcraft. Your character is immune to attack and it is through the command of one or more pets that you succeed.
AND/OR
B) You take control of one of several generic "vehicle mechanic" avatars. This could take the form of a jousting arena in its simplest form. In a more complicated form, you play a simplified version of your class, boiled down to 5-6 signature abilities with normalized damage.
In terms of "lore" any situations where you aren't playing your own character is a situation where you are essentially the trainer or sponsor for a team of NPC gladiators. You could spec/upgrade them with things like world PvP and/or Battleground dailies but the power surve would be relatively small, emphasizing skill in the heat of battle.