The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Design vs. Itemization

- My PvE set is ridiculously high in expertise. Every piece that dropped with superior strength, sockets, and so on had expertise instead of armor penetration or crit to the point where I was forced to go back and wear older Ulduar gear over TotC 'upgrades' that had me at a ridiculously high 44 expertise and a shockingly low 33% ArP. Part of this problem was exacerbated by the 2h weapon that I'm using, a sword with lovely stats but so much expertise that I actually have gone back to using Aesir's Edge for PvE until I get a suitable axe or polearm. This is luck of the draw time: I took what dropped first and then noticed that over time my expertise was far higher than I needed at the cost of other stats, necessitating that I drop down to lower iLevel gear that had the mix of stats I needed.
- My tanking gear is now very enviable in most respects, but much of the upgrades that drop in TotC/TotGC lack hit rating. As a result, I can't wear my absolute best necklace or bracers because doing so drops my hit rating below where I'm comfortable even with Glyph of Taunt to help make up some of the difference. We're talking a difference of almost 2k health between my maximum stamina set (what I wear for tanking heroic Twins, because threat's really not an issue there) and the set I wear if there's any chance of threat being an issue. I'm basically going to have to go run TotC/GC 10 to get the hit rating tanking gear there.
- Both of these issues are gear related. But another issue is encounter related: warrior DPS is still dependent on rage generation and remaining in range long enough to turn that rage into damage output. Similarly, warrior threat generation is still limited by incoming damage being turned into rage and then outgoing threat. What this means is, warriors (and yes, druids use rage too but I'm not qualified to discuss druid issues) still start with the tank nearly empty compared to other non-rage classes. Tanking or DPSing on the DK I've noticed that having some abilities that use runes and others that cost runic power limits the DK without feeling like a limitation, while warriors are every bit as limited but can really feel the constraint.
One of the examples I've used before and will again now is the idea that avoidance (dodge in particular) has gotten too high in WotLK and the only way to counter it has been to design bosses that hit harder and harder. The problem with this idea is that it reverses the way the paradigm actually evolved. It's not that bosses were forced by the cruel, naughty players to hit us harder and harder because of our vicious and malicious dodge stacking until finally in Icecrown they threw their hands up in despair and nerfed dodge. It's that bosses kept hitting us like freight trains so that block rating, a once-useful stat, became basically useless and all anyone cared about was stacking Effective Health so to survive as long as possible when one of these ridiculous damage dealing machines was focusing its ire on us.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm cautiously optimistic about Chill of the Throne. If this is the way Blizzard chooses to get us off of the ever escalating arms race between incoming boss super damage and players stacking Avoidance/EH stats, well and good. But I've been looking at my Trial of the Crusader/Grand Crusader gear, and you know what? My dodge is ridiculous. Without making the slightest attempt to do so, without setting out to build a set with high avoidance, I'm sitting at close to 30% dodge and over 26% parry.
This means two things. Not only is the argument that players are forcing the evolution of encounter design flawed by focusing on the players instead of the encounters they're responding to, it presumes a level of player choice that is not valid. I didn't stack avoidance. It was stacked for me. I've actually had to go back to older gear and change enchants to ensure that my hit rating stayed anywhere near where I wanted it to because the hit rating is not on the gear. I'd be happy to do as Ghostcrawler has suggested in the past and stack some threat stats. Put them on the gear. If you're complaining that player avoidance is so out of hand that you have to nerf dodge by 20%, fine. Stop ladling dodge on the gear so heavily that I could easily stack 40% dodge if I really wanted to, then. Whose fault is it that dodge is out of hand, here? Is it mine, for using the gear you've provided for me? Am I expected to not use the best possible gear because that makes encounter design difficult to balance?
Chill of the Throne is a solution, but it's a ham fisted one. At least it hits all tanks more or less equally. But it's another example of a balance issue that really has nothing to do with the classes. Tanks aren't at fault for choosing to wear the gear that drops. DPS warriors often face this very issue and are often penalized for sitting down and figuring out which gear works best for them. Warriors are wearing leather and mail because the stats are better? Well, we could make plate with comparable stats. but instead we'll add talents that give attack power from armor value and change warrior talents so they work directly on strength instead of AP. (At least they realized they'd have to make strength necks, rings and so on to help balance this out to some degree.) This seems to me to be a case of the cart being placed before the horse, and then blaming the cart for getting itself in front of the equine.
Icecrown will most likely be the culmination of the current paradigm of encounter design and gear itemization, which is hardly all bad. I think we'll get a chance to really see exactly how each class shakes out when exposed to its utmost stress levels in the ultimate raid of Wrath of the Lich King. I expect that going into Cataclysm the designers will have learned from the domino effect of gear design/encounter design that we've seen so far in Wrath.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, News items, Instances, Raiding, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Rhabella Nov 13th 2009 2:09PM
There were are lots of issues with ToC gear. Veneretio hit on the lack of hit on the gear for tanks. It seems like the gear setups from naxx-ulduar and then jumping to ICC, are good, but the devs missed something in the ToC tier with necessary stats.
ZMES_Matt Nov 13th 2009 2:22PM
Great article.
I especially liked the opening hook to get people to click on the jump without actually saying "click on the jump" for once. Yay subtlety! :D
Gnosh Nov 13th 2009 2:25PM
I'm having the same issue with Hit and Haste on hunter gear. I have to actively avoid gear with hit, because I'm a full 2% over the cap- but I can't find haste anywhere.
Sigmanine Nov 13th 2009 2:34PM
I'm definitely agreeing with you that its necessary to wear Ulduar pieces to get that elusive prot hit rating.
alpha5099 Nov 13th 2009 2:39PM
Wait, why would a Warrior wear mail? Unless I'm mistaken (and I just did a Wowhead search to double check), any physical DPS mail in the game has Intellect on it. Is it really possible for a piece of mail gear to be worthwhile for a Warrior, saddled with an absolutely useless stat for them?
Mayhew Nov 13th 2009 3:01PM
Yes, the mail gear is still good, because it is itemized as 6-stat gear. The plate DPS gear is all 4-stat gear, which means the itemization points devoted to each individual stat cost more on the plate gear.
Even if you ignore the int on that mail gear, you still have 5 useful stats to work with, and the itemization points on each of those stats cost less. Also, you get a more even spread over multiple stats, so it is easier to balance them out.
Mohrlock Nov 13th 2009 9:52PM
I get what your saying Mayhew, kinda at least.
Let's make this a bit easier to understand, because there is no way 6-stat mail could be work out better for a plate wearer than 4-stat pieces.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level
Have a look at the raw stats; just like any other stat Intellect is equal to a full point (1.0). Yes I know these points are pulled from BC, but they still work fairly the same. And yes, I know, all the spell-y stuff is all SP now :P
Armor points themselves are quiet minimal; coming in at 0.07 points per point. So the weight of armour is very negligable: in fact I'd go so far to consider it ignorable (who the hell looks at Armor aside from Druids anyways?!). Armed to the Teeth is not a reason to be looking at Armor, it's just a nice bonus (hence it being in the very first tier of Fury and not some deep-seeded talent point).
Spell Power and MP5 are stats that I normally see coupled with Intellect, two more things a Warrior doesn't need what so ever.
You know what isn't even on one piece of mail? Strength! Pretty sure Warriors use that alot, but we can look past that for now :)
Desirable stats on mail, just to clarify, are: Agility, Stamina, Crit, Armor Pen, Haste (sometimes, not always) & sockets.
Considering at least one in 3 of the previously mentioned "negative" stats are chewing up a decent portion of the gears allocated Item Points, the ONLY reason I could see a Warrior using Mail is that they are wearer greens/blues in DESPERATE need of an upgrade. Seriously desperate.
Those 3 negative stats are spending valuable points that (let's just assume Warriors don't need/want any more strength) could be better spent on higher values of the "desirable" stats mentioned. Which funnily enough, Plate does quiet well... and so does Leather. Leathers' only downfall is the lack of strength; which can be rectified with smart gemming. Mail on the other hand; wasted points before we even start.
It's not that stats cost more on Plate, or even Leather, it's that more are SPENT on the gear.
Mohrlock Nov 13th 2009 9:58PM
And just to clarify a bit more: those "desirable" stats are described from what can be found on Mail.
I'm completely aware of stats such as Expertise, Hit Rating & other potential mitigation stats..
Mayhew Nov 14th 2009 4:34PM
Mohrlock, I respectfully disagree with you on a few points.
First, it's not the fact that the plate dps gear is *plate* that makes the stats cost more; rather, it's the fact that there are only 4 stats for the itemization points to be distributed across. The way that Blizzard's itemization system works is that the more points a particular item has in a certain stat, the more expensive each additional point in that stat becomes. Since plate gear only has 4 stats to spread the points across, there are more points in each stat, and thus each of the stat totals costs more in terms of itemization points. 6-stat gear has lower point totals in each stat, and thus the stats cost closer to their base itemization cost. This is one reason why 6-stat gear is generally more desirable than 4-stat gear.
Second, warriors (and paladins, too, I believe) have no direct need for strength. All of their abilities' damage scales from their attack power, not their strength. Although strength turns into attack power at a better rate per itemization point than pure attack power does, this difference is not necessarily enough to offset the difference between 6-stat gear and 4-stat gear.
Mail gear has several more beneficial stats on it than the ones you mentioned. Looking at TotC mail gear, I find agility, stamina, hit rating, attack power, armor penetration, crit rating, and haste rating spread across it. All of these stats are beneficial to plate-wearing DPSers, to greater or lesser extent. As far as the spell power and mp5 stats that you mentioned, those can be ignored. I'm talking about hunter/enhancement mail gear here, not resto/elemental gear.
So in conclusion, I reiterate that mail gear has a lot of potential to be better-itemized than plate gear for plate-wearing DPSers. Blizz is trying to compensate for this through talents like Armored to the Teeth and Improved Berserker Stance, but that doesn't solve the problem of the inflexibility of four-stat gear. It is far easier to have too much of one stat and too little of another when you only have four stats to work with on each piece of gear.
Mystur Nov 13th 2009 2:43PM
I recently rolled a Orc Warrior [first time] so I'm researching various aspects of the class. Thank you for writing such an in-depth article. Hopefully, I'll be able to get to the level where I can apply it effectively before any more damn patches come out >.>
Ginby Nov 13th 2009 3:05PM
This is a very well written article, i don't even play a warrior and i just had to read it>.
jrizutko Nov 13th 2009 3:09PM
Didn't blizzard/GC specifically say that the problem was that they added an extra iLevel for hard modes, and that's why stats got so out of hand? Where did Matt get the misconception that Blizzard was counteracting player action? Half this article is built on a false assumption.
Rhabella Nov 13th 2009 3:49PM
Out of control stats (due to extra iLvls) COUPLED with players playing the EH game because hits were hitting so hard is the real reason for things like Icecrown radiance. Neither is really completely responsible but when forced to play the balancing game, so much of what we discover about WoW is that we are better served when we don’t play balanced toons, but instead toons who forsake all other stats in favor of one.
The overall result is GC can say whatever he wants, as can the other developers, but they have not done a good enough job to entice us to balance all stats. Cataclysm appears to be a step in the right direction with revamped trees and the mastery stat all players will use, but on live servers today, there are too many variables when examined are determined to be of little impact on the raw value of one stat, and for a tank in ToC, it is EH.
Valt Nov 13th 2009 3:09PM
The itemization of T9 just makes me blank stare the wall.
"Hey casters. I heard you are overcapped on hit. Want some more hit with that?" (friend got 25% hit as mage when he went from ulduar to some toc gear wich were much better so hit came with it..)
"Hey melee. There, have some expertise of the cost of ARP"
"Hey tanks...uh... we are just gonna remove most of the hit and expertise you have there..we cant let you be hitcapped with these items that are 2 times better" (other friend lost 200 hit and 12 expertise when going from ulduar gear to toc gear)
jrizutko Nov 13th 2009 3:16PM
I will agree that the folks assigning stats to gear seem to throw stats on without much thought whatsoever if they would actually be desirable to players.
At this point I wish anything outside of tier gear had the option to let us go into the itemization budgeting engine, and assign the stats ourselves. That or give me a gem that gives me +40 Haste and -10 MP5
ZMES_Matt Nov 13th 2009 3:34PM
That's interesting that your friend got to 25% hit. I'm a healer, so I don't get to delve into DPS alot, but I think you only need 17% on bosses, and as a mage he should have 6% through talents alone, that -every- raiding Mage takes (3% in Arcane and 3% in Frost). Being at 25% hit could actually be -very- beneficial because he could entirely remove those talent points to something else and still be hit capped.
I haven't had a chance to play around with a talent calculator with those extra talent points, but it could potentially be a really big DPS increase, maybe not as much so as the raw stats on gear would have helped, but at the very least he could spec into extra utility.
Time to go play with a talent calculator... :)
Valt Nov 13th 2009 3:47PM
@ZMES_Matt
Yes its 17% for horde or alliance without draenei buff. He got lucky with drops so he got much better gear he had from ulduar but its loaded and loaded with hit, hit and more hit. He complained a lot about that hes having good gear but just wishes it wouldnt have so much damn hit (well who wouldnt want crit/haste over hit after hitcap mm?).
And yes the other option is basically to get healer gear but thats just silly in some cases (example mp5 stat wich isnt really best dps stat ya know) and he wasnt lucky with those "non-hit-healer drops" so far anyway.
Sigmanine Nov 13th 2009 4:12PM
I'm a ret paladin with 13% hit due to the best available 258 items.... ACK!
PodPeople Nov 13th 2009 6:25PM
healers aren't immune to the stat shift either. my shammy lost at least 3% haste going form my pre-T9 gear to 4 piece T9 set, but my crit went up like 5-8%. over all i think i'd rather have less crit heals coming out faster than a few more crits coming slower. but maybe that's just me.
Kanap Nov 17th 2009 8:16AM
My DK some how ended up with 320 hit and I was like "WTF I gemmed wrong!" (Haven't played him since like 3.2 or something like that) But still its a lot of hit he does not need.(He's in all nax 10 or equal gear)