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11-18-2009 @ 1:09PM
@A Slave Obeys: Wow. So the new content is *ONLY* designed for the the top guilds huh? The rest of us don't really matter? The fact that 95% of the WoW population never got to see some of the content, eh...who cares right? If you aren't a top guild member you are a n00b and should have no voice in what's going on, right? As long as the top guilds get their world firsts the day the content is released, that's all that's important right? Way to push elitism to a new level...
11-18-2009 @ 1:15PM
Barvo sir, you said it better than anything I could come up with, bravo!
11-18-2009 @ 1:20PM
WoW is a COMPETITIVE (READ, COMPETITIVE) game. If your arena team is getting slaughtered in the 3v3 bracket by people who win 15 matches for every 1 you do, you don't complain to Blizzard that someone is better than you, you spend time practicing, learning how to play like that team. Having a design that favors either hard-core guilds or casual guilds is unacceptable either way. As a casual raider of TBC, I understand what it was like to be walled off from the content. In WotLK, given the raid lockouts and general easiness of non-HM encounters, there's no reason that a casual guild couldn't finish Yogg in a month (on ten-man, at least).The people who Blizzard rolled out the red carpet for during TBC are being completely ignored by a decision like this. If Blizzard wants to create an raiding environment for both hardcore and casual players, then they should allow HMs to be played on the first week, it's as simple as that. This allows the top guilds, like Ensidia, to have a humbling challenge on the first day; at the same time, the casual and less serious players will be able to focus on the regular versions of each fight.This is a fair approach to gated progression.On the subject of limited attempts, this actually hurts casual guilds more, as it provides less time for learning fights each week. Most top guilds have players on the PTR (if not their whole guild), so they at least have some preliminary strategy for these encounters.
11-18-2009 @ 1:24PM
@ Slave ObeysFunny, I would have called WoW a cooperative game, not a competitive game...
11-18-2009 @ 1:28PM
Have you ever logged into WoW? Have you ever read trade chat? How often do you see players saying "OH my god! The top guild on the server downed Algalon on 25-man! That's so neat! My congratulations to them. If you need any help with the next raid, I'd be glad to help such neat people!"No, you haven't!Sure, when you raid you're working with your time, but it's you guys against the world.
11-18-2009 @ 1:37PM
Playing Devil's Advocate here. [[TL;DR: Top-tier players have feelings too!]]It's very possible that the man you are replying to isn't even in a 'elite' guild as you mean it. The current misconception of "elite" brings of images of people downing final bosses in the first week, but this notion is just wrong. To be an elite guild all you have to do is attempt and down hard modes while they are still current. And the number of guilds doing that is staggering compared to the "elite" guilds of BC, and even more extreme when compared to vanilla. So when you say that "Elite" guilds and players are a small part of the population, you are mistaken.There are many people who wish a challenge, and normal modes are not a challenge for them, nor their guilds (myself included). However when you have only a few hardmodes left in current content, and you hear that there will not be new ones for you to try for another good 3-4 months possibly, its frustrating.I do understand where you're coming from. I never got to experience AQ40/Naxx/Sunwell, but that doesn't mean that the top tier doesn't have a right to experience the content.Let me finish with this. I have stopped raiding because my guild has stopped doing hardmodes. I want to raid, i really do, but ToC normal is non-challenging. We clear it in an hour, and then stop raiding for the week on 25mans. I learn this, and although I think it is good for the game (see my comments below) I am dissapointed as it means I won't get back into the content i truly enjoy untill at least february.Finally, he never said that 'casuals' (another overused and outdated term) didn't deserve to see the content, he just said, in essence, that he is frustrated because it will be a long time untill he will see the content he enjoys. I guess i could have just said the last sentence... but i already typed the above and I ain't gonna delete it =D.
11-18-2009 @ 1:42PM
@A Slave Obeys: So, if I get what you are telling me is that because a guild chooses to spend weeks on the PTR, you know, unreleased content, that means they DESERVE to be able to finish the content weeks to months before us normal folk, right?And I'm glad that you have figured out how long it takes *any* casual guild to finish off content. I'm sure if you turn over your data to Blizzard so they know, it'll make this tuning process go so much easier now they know it'll only take a month to finish Yogg.And yeah, just because they are slowing down how fast the content is release is showing how much they are ignoring their playerbase. I mean, if you can't clear it in a week, what's the use of doing it, right?Of course only guilds like Ensidia should have the chance to have "humbling challenges" on the first day. The rest of us? We deserve to be in our easymode content not bothering the hardcore people, after all, we don't count, right?And it's amazing that you compare a PvP content, which, by definition is competative, to PvE content which, if you don't *cooperate* with 9-24 other people you just can't do it. I guess, not being a hardcore raider I just don't get to understand that thinking, right?
11-18-2009 @ 2:56PM
@ A Slave Obeys - I have to disagree with your poorly thought out points. First of all you are emphasising the wrong word. The word you should have emphasised is game. This is a game. Period. Second, the other thing is that this is a game we pay for. This is a business decision. A good one at that. It slows down the progress of those that spent time on the PTRs not for the reason of testing the content, but to go as a guild to learn the encounters beforehand simply for epeen purposes of trying for the world or server first. If that is how they wish to spend their time, then that is their right. However, what is NOT their right is the right to dictate to the other 95% of Blizzards paying customers. To quote Spock, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few... or the one.And as to your comments about trade chat. While I agree that it is normally a vial sewer of those at the low end of the gene pool, I happened to be in a city when one of my servers top guilds happened to get a server first major achievement. While there were some boneheads, there were also lots of grats and cheers (not to mention alot of people sent whispers to the guild members as well). Now I don't know what server you play on, but Proudmoore has a better class of folks than that.
11-18-2009 @ 6:38PM
@A Slave Obeys:I actually pity you, that you think WoW is a competitive game. At least on the servers I enjoy, when someone on the server accomplishes something, then YES, there ARE a large number of people congratulating them for their accomplishments, and when possible, helping them.Besides, with your claim that WoW is competitive, you completely hamstring any argument that other people's gameplay should not affect yours, by voluntarily allowing other people's gameplay to affect yours. However, other people are not as interested as you in allowing YOUR gameplay to affect theirs, so they downrank you here and appreciate the more structured, fair and complete gating system Blizzard is doing in ICC (as opposed to the artificial, clunky and incomplete version they used for SWP).
11-18-2009 @ 7:02PM
There is a competitive Meta-game amongst the top guild, but that doesn't mean wow is a competitive game. It might be one to YOU, but in reality raiding competition is a game outside the game, you get very little inside the game benefit for killing so and so first. The benefit is largely prestige, which isn't regulated by game mechanics. As WoW is an MMO, it supposes many types of games. You can raid and not be competitive. You can be competitive without raiding (arenas, particularly). You can opt out of both of those entirely and play lots of alts, go after wierd achievements, or never level and just RP. To declare WoW is a particular type of game is blindness.
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