The Care and Feeding of Warriors: DPS itemization and encounters

If you've been looking over the itemization on Icecrown Citadel gear you may, like me, have noticed that some of the items that one could conceivably acquire are itemized more straightforwardly. We'll use Shadow's Edge, the precursor to Shadowmourne, as an example. If Shadowmourne didn't exist, people would look at this weapon with its 3.7 speed, two red sockets, ArP and Crit Strike rating and massive native strength and would be going ape over it. It's difficult to get, but I expect every single serious DPS warrior, be he arms or fury, will at least do the chain for Shadow's Edge if there's any way he or she can do so. Of course, the face that you will need to beat two bosses in 25 man difficulty and then get 25 of the IC equivalent to Crusader Orbs indicates that not every serious DPS warrior (especially not serious DPS warriors who exclusively run 10 mans) will be able to do so. Furthermore, with Icecrown progressing via gates it will be a few weeks before you even get the chance to kill these two bosses, meaning that you're not going to see a Shadow's Edge (much less a Shadowmourne) on your server within days of IC going live.
In the meantime we can consider weapons like Quel'Delar (a quest reward) and the CItadel Enforcer's Claymore (from 10 man IC) as examples of less compelling itemization. For a fury warrior the fact that they're swords isn't an issue, but for arms it's still an issue. Furthermore, they're just not as well itemized in general. They're only iLevel 251, of course, so it's not really fair to compare them to TotGC 25 drops like Decimation or the Dual-Blade Butcher. (The Butcher/Justicebringer from TotGC are itemized pretty solidly for a warrior.) However, Icecrown/patch 3.3 still keeping mixing it up in itemization terms with drops like Bryntroll, which just leaves me scratching my head. Honestly, I can't imagine switching out my TotGC 2h for Bryntroll, with the 3.4 speed, lower stats, and the proc over stats like crit, ArP or hit. Heck, I'd rather have haste than that proc, But the same instance difficulty also provides us with Cryptmaker.
Yeah, I scratched my head too. I would be remiss if I failed to mention Landsoul getting a shout out, since he's worked so tirelessly on DPS spreadsheets for us.
We talked last week about how tanking itemization and encounter design pushed tanks towards stacking avoidance stats like dodge. With DPS itemization, however, we see instead a series of gearing choices made entirely with 'the best of a bad situation' options in mind. This is by design: we've been told repeatedly, in fact, that gear is often itemized without the 'absolute best' stats on it (and there's debate on how meaningful that level of min-max thinking is) so as to create a metagame wherein players can't simply consult iLevel on gear and slap it on.
There's nothing actually wrong with that approach, even though we as players might prefer it otherwise. The idea that gear iLevel does not immediately equate to better personal DPS means that players have to put thought into the gear they select and wear. The issue with this approach is when players can make all the intelligent choices they want but can't implement them for one reason or another. Issues that will prevent a DPS warrior from reaching his or her maximum potential DPS are manifold and not all are within the power of the player to address. What are these issues?
- Encounter Design: That is to say, when a boss or encounter is so designed to either favor or penalize a warrior for the particular nature of warrior DPS play. Some encounters (Faction Champs as an example) are extremely punative to a particular warrior DPS spec due to that spec's reliance on Whirlwind as a major part of its rotation. Other fights are designed in such a way that a fury warrior using Whirlwind and Cleave can put out ridiculously high DPS numbers. Neither of these encounter types are designed optimally for judging warrior DPS.
- Luck of the Draw: Itemization being what it is, you are at times hampered by what drops. While crafted gear and vendors can help make up the gap to some extent, trinkets and weapons in particular are often places where you as a DPS warrior can spend months hoping for a trinket upgrade or a weapon that just won't drop. I've seen friends go insane watching the same bosses fail to drop a Death's Verdict yet again. It's not pretty. I'm not claiming this is unique to DPS warriors, merely that it's one factor that is beyond their control much as it is beyond anyone else's.
- Strange Itemization: I mentioned last week that before I switched over to tanking full time I noticed that I was loading up on Expertise over ArP or Crit mainly because all the gear that was dropping was just ridiculously high in the stat, and yet going back to older gear to try and balance it out left me with less attack power from strength. When you find youself using Aesir's Edge over the Sharpened Obsidian Edged Blade because one just has far more balance to its stat budget than the other, it's glaring and disjointed. I understand that you don't want iLevel to be an automatic "This is better" determination, but it should have some meaning.
- Class Design: This is where things like Sword Specialization vs. Axe Specialization keep cropping up. When switching from a sword to an axe or polearm increases DPS by close to 400 in Ulduar/TotC gear as an arms warrior, that's a very large discrepancy between talents. It's good that we have talents that allow us to choose what kind of weapon we like best, but the fact of the matter is it's very rare that we actually get to pick. See Luck of the Draw, above. With there being no weapons above iLevel 200 on vendors/craftable, we kind of have to take whatever we can get, so penalizing us for what we really had no control over is a poor design choice in my opinion.
Patch 3.3 is the last major patch of Wrath of the Lich King. With the new Icecrown Citadel 5-man dungeons and 10/25-man raid arriving soon, patch 3.3 will deal the final blow to Arthas. WoW.com's Guide to Patch 3.3 will keep you updated with all the latest patch news.Filed under: Warrior, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Saoul Nov 21st 2009 9:22PM
Shadow's Edge? That's a new one for me, where about would that come from?
Aside from that, I'm glad that Warriors are finally catching some love around here. Not many Dps posts for us. :)
Shadowhaxor Nov 21st 2009 9:36PM
Shadow's Edge is the first stage / state of Shadowmourne.
juusu Nov 21st 2009 10:13PM
Weapons with a fast speed and decent proc scream, "PvP use!". Some more so than others. Perhaps just as an option for players who already have resilience stacked to the point that it seems pointless to add more (especially after the new season tier), to have a nice proc instead... a lifetap in the example on Bryntroll.
If you've read some recent interviews with the dev team its obvious that they indeed do feel their "hands are untied" since its the last set before Cataclysm... Its the time for excess!
Heilig Nov 21st 2009 9:22PM
"In the meantime we can consider weapons like Quel'Delar (a quest reward) and the CItadel Enforcer's Claymore (from 10 man IC) as examples of less compelling itemization. For a fury warrior the fact that they're swords isn't an issue, but for arms it's still an issue. Furthermore, they're just not as well itemized in general."
We're not all warriors, Matt. Some of us don't really want a bunch of ArPen on our gear since we get no bonus to it through talents. I realize this is a warrior column, but "well itemized" is a very subjective term, especially when the design team has to consider the needs of two other classes.
Coldbear Nov 21st 2009 10:57PM
very good point
jslim419 Nov 22nd 2009 12:25AM
I am a warrior tho :P.. but i'm not going to whine if my weapons don't have the best stat's available. because well.. I stopped raiding week in, and week out back in april when my guild fell apart. on my server in order to get in a pug for anything ulduar and above you need to have the achievement for them already. so i'm locked out of everything but VoA, and ony. so now the upgraded obsidian edged blades are BiS for what is available to me. when 3.3 is released Quel'Delar will be BiS for what is available to me, and honestly i'm quite excited to get my hands on it even if it has haste.
however if this was a year ago i would be holding hands across america with Mr. Rossi over the issue of poor itemization of plate dps gear. now a days tho i see a piece of plate dps gear that has 99 expertise, 58 haste, 150,000 stamina, and 54 strength and the only thing that pops in my head is "UPGRAYEDD!". the two D's are for a double dose of DPS.
Bruhaha Nov 22nd 2009 1:07PM
You apparently missed the part of the article where it's titled: The Care and Feeding of WARRIORS. Also, unless you are talking about mace specialization warriors have no arm pen talents.
Maymer Nov 21st 2009 9:40PM
"This is one reason why I support stat simplification in Cataclysm". I agree......I'm a warrior damnit! I see something, I smash it.
Enemy Player? WARRIOR SMASH!!!
Squirrel? WARRIOR SMASH!!! AND DING FOR ACHIEVEMENT!!!
Mother's Chocolate Cake?...well, I eat that...THEN SMASH BECAUSE THE CAKE (you guessed it) IS A LIE!!!
All seriousness, although I like the idea that you sometimes have to think about what stats you need to balance over others, I can't help but feel troubled when I look at a piece of gear that has very nice stats....but I need a certain stat more for my DPS rotation. Pre-nerf ArP (heck, it still is) is a great example. I still have old gear not because I can't find an upgrade, but for the sole fact that its ArP, and it will be replaced by Hit and Expertise that I am already up to the freaky neck in!!....I like to smash things GC.....not be brainy like mages
Coldbear Nov 21st 2009 11:00PM
See Heilig's comment right above yours. Try to avoid tunnel vision when you discuss itemization and you'll see the game from a wider perspective where every decision the devs make affects a wide variety of people who enjoy vastly different things - be it class choice or arena or bg's or pve raids.
Now look at ICC itemization again and maybe it won't look so stupid for the game as a whole - given that the itemization is definitely going to change between now and live, the only question is how much.
Coldbear Nov 21st 2009 9:54PM
Great article. Just one thing - do you really want all encounters to be similar, with no spec "penalized"? That'd be pretty terribly boring.
If you're absolutely stuck on playing - say - Fury but not Arms under any circumstances, then you will see lower numbers or not be as useful on some encounters. Isn't that preferable to all encounters being designed to provide equal dps opportunities for every single spec in the game?
Again, great article, except for that issue. I'd personally like to have a few cool procs on weapons in high-end raiding instances and don't mind having a few 'fun' items like the Bryntroll axe that isn't strictly speaking itemized for min/maxed endgame PVE raiding. Yet. Things will change between now and ICC going live.
Eli Nov 21st 2009 10:20PM
I'm going to have to go with Coldbear on this one. If a fight is unfair towards a particular class or spec - You suck it up. I was surprised to hear that coming from a warrior, seeing as all of your abilities and auto-attacks don't require you to be standing still, which is a luxury I don't think you can appreciate until you've played a caster class, namely hunters/mages, to realize just how 'unfair' some fights are to us. Basically any fight that requires to move to different fields of the fighting area to do what is required of us, i.e. Deconstructor. I'm drawing a blank on the other fights that require a lot of movement (oh yeah, Anub), but I can definitely remember there are quite a few.
There are other points I'd like to contend that apply to essentially every class and raid role, but I'd rather not.
The point is, this stuff isn't supposed to come easy (I feel like an elitist saying this, but it's not meant to sound that way). If Blizz added weapons that were perfectly itemized for DPS warriors; hell I'd be happy as a kid in a candy shop, cause that just increases the chances that warriors don't roll on weapons that are also good for hunters (my main) just because there's loads of agility, crit, and attack power. I have DKs, Warriors, Druids, and Paladins all rolling in competition for the following items with only agil and stam as the primary stats: 2h swords/axes, Polearms, staves, and 1h daggers/axes/swords on the off-chance that I can win another one to dual-wield.
The problem is, making weapons for each class and spec within that class is WAY too unwieldy and will only result in fewer drops of each weapon in the long run. So would you rather have a 12% chance to get a weapon that gives you a decent dps increase with stats that are pretty "meh," or a 3% chance to get a weapon that is perfectly itemized for you?
Personally, I'll stick with the current system. Chances are, the RL is going to beat off the pack of hounds that are plate dps so I can get the weapon that has no str, but loads of agility because there are plenty of better upgrades for them WITH strength, that'll end up dropping the next week. (Yes this has happened to me, minus the sympathetic Raidlead stepping in to fend off the plate dpsers. And yes, some form of strenght 2hander did drop on the next boss, which I did not roll on because I know that survival hunters, contrary to popular belief, do NOT participate in melee combat).
TL;DR verson: Specificity in weapon itemization leads to more QQ, not less.
Wyred Nov 22nd 2009 8:43AM
Small point, melee won't take complaints from ranged about positioning too seriously. For the most part, melee have it worse, having to repostion with mobs/boss and getting out of aoe and still dps, and if you raided in TBC it was like playing World of Rangecraft. Leotheras anyone?
Natsumi Nov 22nd 2009 12:36PM
@Eli
As a Warrior that ocationally plays a Hunter, I know that Hunters are not nearly as penalized as you seem to believe. As to ALL our abilities being instant and/or not being effected by movement, you are incorrect. I raid as Arms (yes, Arms Warriors still exist) and I do pull Decent DPS (sometimes more than the Hunters, though that's rare). BUT, being Arms I rely on an ability called Slam, Slam has a cast time (0.5 seconds talented, 1.5 seconds base) for about 5-10% of my DPS. every time I need to move I have to stop spamming Slam (I love Slam now that I have T9, extra 5% crit on it and Deep Wounds is a Beast). Therefore if a boss moved 3 inches to the left, i need to move 3 inches to the left or I can't do the job I'm there for, however, you wouldn't even need to stop your Steady Shot spam. You wouldn't even break a sweat if the boss throws out an AoE that throws everyone within 10 yards back (like the Yeti and Worms in Beasts), I would have to run back to the boss before I could start DPS again. If the boss conjures fire at his feet (Malchazar, the infernals Jaraxus summons, the Lock in Faction Champs, the list goes on) I have to run out then run back in, if the boss has a Fear (like Onyxia) i still need to get back to it before I can DPS again. All of those situations FAVOR ranged specs over melee specs, I'm not complaining (too much) about this, because we do have melee friendly bosses (Patchwork and Thaddius), but I feel they are few and far between. 9 bosses out of 10 I only see spell effects, the boss's fat butt, and raid warnings about standing in the fire. What do YOU get to see?
Omicron Nov 21st 2009 9:57PM
Regarding weapon specializations... how much do you think will the 3.3 change to Sword Specialization help to even the playing field? Internal cooldown nonwithstanding, it's a straight doubling of the proc rate. That has to achieve at least something.
Coldbear Nov 21st 2009 10:03PM
#2:
You're complaining that http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=45868;49498 an item that's only 13 ilvl above another isn't a cut-and-dry always-and-forever upgrade?? What the hell are you smoking?
Darkmoon Card: Greatness and Grim Toll are still pretty darn good for plenty of classes deep into TOGC, and we're able shortly after hitting 80 very early in this expansion. If you're complaining about two pieces 13 ilvls apart - then I just lost a fair amount of respect for you - you're not analyzing anymore - you're just whining.
QQ more.
Itemization in Wow for a player character not in an absolute-most-cutting-edge guild isn't absolute ever. People get lucky and get their major upgrades early on in an instance and get bored. People don't and never get to upgrade their main weapon in a certain tier raid. Oh well. The next tier will have something for you in its 10p version more than likely. It's just a constant progression, a flow over time, and unless you're talking strictly to the top 1% most progressed raiders in the world (or less, probably) then you have no business complaining that someone doesn't reach his or her maximum dps potential. The game would get pretty boring if we did easily. You're supposed to have to make choices - but I suppose you'd prefer not to.
Azizrael Nov 21st 2009 10:43PM
Re: crafted weapons - I think this expansion could definitely have benefited from them. I know Blizzard wanted to get away from crafted loot that was superior to raid drops, but why not have, for example, the pattern for a few ilvl226 items drop in TOC25? It's a full tier behind the progression gear, so anything crafted from it would be replaced by the Blacksmith himself, but it'd make a nice upgrade for the 90% of players not running Ulduar+ content, and make some good money for the Smith. There are plenty of people still running around doing dailies and casual PVP with Titansteel weapons, so why not provide an upgrade path for them that rewards the hardcore player?
thebitterfig Nov 23rd 2009 12:47PM
I too think crafted/vendor acquirable weapons are a good idea, but bliz has done better with this than you might think. Titansteel and Tourney-badge ilvl 200 weapons are probably fine for casual use, plus bliz put good weapons for pretty much everyone in h-ToC 5. sure, they are ilvl 219, but typically fairly well itemised. I wish the healy mace had haste instead of crit and rogues only really get a mainhand weapon, but they are pretty solid on the whole. Granted, you still have to suffer through RNG problems, but it seems like a good compromise for getting reasonable weapons into people who are gearing up late so they don't have to do ulduar 25 or hardmode 10 in order to get anything reasonable.
ICC 5-man heroics will also have some pretty decent weapons, too. Crafted items would be nice, but the current system of hard* heroics dropping solid weapons is a great idea.
*Hard relative to other heroics. Try h-ToC with a 25k hp tank, dpsers doing barely over 1k, and a healer with crafted epics and rep blues. Fine for any heroic other than ToC5.
Sky Nov 21st 2009 11:15PM
is the quel delar quest chain out yet? I coulda sworn i saw someone with the quel delar
If so, where do i go to start it? thanks in advance for those who will reply
Azizrael Nov 21st 2009 11:20PM
It's not out. The quest chain starts with a trash drop from the new heroics in 3.3, I think.
Omegan01 Nov 22nd 2009 6:54AM
You probably saw someone with Quel'serrar, the Onyxia tanking sword.