How many wipes does it take to end a raid?
by Mike Schramm 
Nov 22nd 2009 at 4:00PM
Do any of you have an actual policy? I tend to not get involved in PuGs at all if I think there's a chance they won't make it -- there are too many fish in the sea, and too many other things for me to work on rather than beating my head up against a boss. But maybe it would be good to set up a rule that most of us can agree on, something like, "three wipes and you're out." That might save a lot of time and frustration in the new Dungeon system.
Of course, the good news is that, on the opposite side of things, Blizzard has made it pretty easy to fill in spots for people who leave -- you just queue up again and get another player (though we'll have to see how people feel about signing up for an instance and appearing there only to find that two bosses are already down). But I'm sure quite a few groups will end up having problems, and when they do, and that stranger who's supposed to be healing decides to call it quits rather than continue on, just remember: they've had one too many wipes.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, How-tos, Virtual selves, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Kyle Nov 22nd 2009 4:08PM
I will stick around for three wipes before leaving. If we are getting progressively better on each wipe, I may stick around for more. If the group is just absolutely terrible, people yelling, raid leader spamming the wrong advice, or anything just completely unacceptable, I will leave then, no matter what the circumstances. But usually, if I have to pug, or if I'm leading the raid, I will ask for three tries before I call it or leave. I think it's a fair amount for everyone to get their heads on without expecting too much.
crschmidt Nov 22nd 2009 5:52PM
This is pretty much exactly my personal rule.
The other night, I was doing an Ony10 run. I went into it a bit concerned; our off-tank still had a few greens, but had obviously been running ToC-5 on heroic to pick up pieces, and we only had two tree healers and two warrior tanks (the rest DPS). Additionally, we only had one melee DPS (rogue), and his DPS on the pre-Ony trash was somewhat poor.
In a great group, you could probably pull this off. Unfortunately, this was not a great group. I was the top non-AOE DPSer (as a hunter, I generally leave whelp AOE to other classes while working on Ony; Volley isn't that great of a spell compared to other class DPS), though it's obviously hard to test that in Ony.
I got put on the big adds coming in to make up for our lack of another melee. The first two pulls, our OT died to the first blast nova (and we wiped it up pretty quick after that). The third pull, we got her down, but mostly through luck: There were whelps all over the place, and when she came down, she didn't get picked up, so she wiped half the raid with a single breath.
After this third pull, someone left without saying anything. I said "I don't think this is going to work out, seeya guys" and split as well. There was a vent for this particular Ony -- 6/10 were from the same guild -- and someone said "I can't believe people just want a quick run for loot", etc.
I popped up and said "Look, I don't need a single thing off Ony10; I've got the Ony25 necklace, helm, and gun. There is nothing for me here, I came because I like doing Ony. I'm leaving because we have had loose whelps on every pull, have had people dying to shit they shouldn't die to, and I really just don't think you're going to get down."
"But we do this every week without problems!"
"Not this week. Sorry, and good luck."
At that point, I signed off.
Is it possible that they could have picked up another healer or a better geared tank, and done the run with success? Yes. Do I think that the group that they had was not going to have any luck? Yes. Did I feel that I owed a group of random people more than 30-40 minutes of my time with no reward? No, I really didn't.
In a PUG of things like VoA/Ony, I really think that 3-wipes-I'm-out is fair. On the other hand, when I settle in for a zerg of Sarth+3D, I'm expecting to spend a fair amount more time. If I PUG Naxx/Ulduar/ToC, I plan to be there until the last boss dies or the raid leader calls it. (Generally, for longer content, my expectation is that 2-3 wipes is when the raid leader says "Okay, something is going wrong, we need to reevaluate who is underperforming."; If I see that we're just bashing our heads against the wall, I may leave.)
I think that I might be somewhat more reticent to leave a PUG if I were a tank or healer -- DPS is easy to replace by comparison, which lets me be somewhat casual about leaving. However, at some point, you really have to cut your losses -- and the shallower the content is, the easier it is to do so.
matthewggrammer Nov 22nd 2009 6:30PM
I feel that story was very deep and insightful. I am now a better man for having read it. Thank you.
Michelle Nov 22nd 2009 8:35PM
It depends, but I really wanted to share this story.
We were on a guild run OS 10 farming the emblems/bag. One of our....younger....members decided because he was bored he was going to raidquit and Leeroy Sarth.
We didn't even get started and the whole team left him inside alone.
Never seen behavior like that from a guild member before, needless to say he's banned from anything for 3 weeks.
Babasyzygy Nov 24th 2009 4:20AM
@crschmidt : Take another look at Volley, it was recently quietly denerfed and is pretty effective these days.
J.B Nov 22nd 2009 4:11PM
For easy/ish content, I'll stick around for 3 wipes, max. For harder stuff, I'll stay for 5 or more. It usually depends on why we're wiping. If it's different stuff each time, and we seem to be making progress towards a kill, that's fine. If it's the same people failing at something at the same point in the raid every time, and the raid leaders won't kick them, I quit.
Fozz Nov 23rd 2009 1:07AM
We already have an answer to this from Blizzard.
Based on their Ice Crown raid throttling rules, 5 wipes and we are done.
/end thread
GerardthePriest Nov 22nd 2009 4:11PM
Personally, the biggest factor I consider is the raid leadership. Is someone in charge? Are they building the raid carefully? Are they indicating clearly what the raid will be doing and how?
If the answers are yes, I'll stick around for a few wipes, or more if progress is being made. If there's no indication of actual leadership, I frequently leave before the raid even starts to save myself the trouble.
Daniel Nov 22nd 2009 4:12PM
As someone who has never been a guild and has done almost a thousand PUGs I can say the rule is very very simple: It depends. It depends on my mood, on the instance, on the other players, on the group compositions. I think it's folly to make hard and fast rules here.
The number one thing I look for after a wipe is learning. If the group makes an effort to learn from it's mistakes that's a very good sign and I will likely stay for a few wipes. It is satisfying when a group of complete strangers comes together and actually figures out how to use their talents and abilities to get the job done rather than just out gear the instance.
All I can say is that with experience comes judgment. Both in avoiding bad PUGs to begin with and knowing how many wipes to suffer through.
Talyre Nov 22nd 2009 4:14PM
It really depends on the raid. If its VoA or OS no drakes, I'm gone after one wipe (barring extraordinary circumstances). There's no excuse for wiping on that content. Anything else and Ill give it 2-3 wipes, though usually after 2 enough people start leaving the raid that its usually better to just find something else to do. Basically, the deeper we are into the content, the more willing I am to tolerate additional wipes.
In guild runs, though, I'll stick it out no matter how many wipes but perhaps that goes without saying.
Whitebird Nov 22nd 2009 4:15PM
I'm generally one of the last people to leave a raid, primarily because I know from experience that whenever anyone drops it begins a chain of people dropping, and then the raid almost always falls apart. As long as the group stays together and continues to give the fights their best shot, it's possible to try out new strategies and progress, but when people start to drop members of the raid tend to start to argue, the accusations of "You all suck" and "This is a fail raid" begin. Plus, there's always the fact that if a raid is having difficulty downing a boss with a full or nearly full group, it's going to have much more difficulty doing so with fewer than that.
When a group wipes again and again, I suppose I can understand why people drop. I wish they would say something first, though, instead of dropping group with nary a parting word.
Gimmlette Nov 22nd 2009 4:31PM
It really depends. Going in, I say "Three wipes on a boss and we're done" unless it's something like Naxx where you could move to a different wing and try a different boss. If you struggle on trash, you will know whether you can down a boss or if this is "yet another learning experience".
If the third wipe is the always popular "less than 5% wipe", unless there is a glaring problem that just won't be solved by another crack at the boss, I ask the group (if I'm leading) if they want another go.
It can also depend upon how much time people can commit to a raid and if goals for the raid are stated upfront. If we are running Naxx, it may be we are just farming one wing because a couple people needing badges have 90 minutes and that is all. Or if you are taking several new people into a raid, we might set a time limit. I don't like trying and trying and trying when there's just something not clicking.
If someone has to leave in the middle of a Naxx run, for instance, we are crystal clear that X, X, and X are down and we are working on X. If they still want to come, we'll invite them, but there are no hard feelings if they don't.
As with any run, it's about communicating upfront what you hope to do and setting limits. Then, if you reach "3 and out", you can always ask the group if they wish to continue.
ToyChristopher Nov 22nd 2009 4:33PM
I'll stick around for far far longer than I probably should. It's hard though because I have been surprised by groups I thought had absolutely no chance at pulling things off somehow make it through.
One indicator though is the leadership of a raid-- not just he actual raid leader but those people who step up and are very vocal. I think if the raid starts getting really mean that chances of succeeding are low. I know in those times I start to get so resentful that I almost don't want to win.
I also think a few words or at least bye! would be better than just dropping group or worse just disconnecting.
Liam Nov 22nd 2009 4:37PM
Until a piece of my armour goes red. End of story. Otherwise we can wipe over and over and I don't mind.
I will, however, completely quit a PUG if elitism shows its ugly face. This includes, but is not limited to, someone spamming recount every five seconds.
SunwellVialist Nov 22nd 2009 5:46PM
pretty much.
I am go until my gear starts to get into the dangerous territory, then I say it, apologise and pull out. I don't mind a few wipes if the atmosphere is good. Hell, the first time I pugged Kara, back during BC, we spent in there for 10 hours or so, only got past opera, before I had to bow out. The raid leader was bad, pulling aggro and wiping us at least 10 times, but people were still in good spirits, had fun talking and joking, and so I didn't mind. Plus, having a repair bot around on my druid was pretty useful to keep us inside, without having to go out to repair.
danawhitaker Nov 22nd 2009 4:37PM
For me, it depends. It depends on what (or who) is causing the wipe, my assessment of whether a particular scenario is doable if we stop screwing up, and my mood. Certain people screwing up piss me off more than others. I've run with a healer who is known to have a problem with talking or typing and healing simultaneously. If that person was causing wipes because they were talking too much on vent and not doing their job, I'd leave.
If a wipe is caused by situational things that aren't in our control (internet dropping or the game crashing) I'm more willing to keep pushing on, especially if the boss is doable and we understand the tactics.
I will not bang my head against the wall for hours with people who are incompetent and show no sign of improving or if the boss is too difficult be doable given our current gear. There's no point to that. At that point, you should be going back to content that you can get gear from so you can come back another week and make a viable try.
Jeff Nov 22nd 2009 4:39PM
It's not so much the number of wipes but what's causing them. If we keep wiping on Northrend Beasts because the same person won't get out of the fires or likes having staring contests with Icehowl, I'll expect the raid leader to get rid of them, or I'm out.
If the wipes are being caused by legitimate mistakes, and we're learning from them, I have no problem sticking it out.
Of course, the VAST majority of PuGs I've been in have been the first case, rather than the second. That's why I almost never pug anymore, at least not raids.
Wolfeh Nov 22nd 2009 4:41PM
I don't know about "three wipes and you're out." Accidents happen, after all. :X
Gendou Nov 22nd 2009 4:42PM
A one... a twoooo... a three...
A three!
blizzardsprules Nov 22nd 2009 5:54PM
A three a ha ha ha ha!