Tank opportunities in the late endgame
by Mike Schramm 
Dec 7th 2009 at 3:00PM
In essence, they're saying there's a glass ceiling for tanks. Once you reach a certain point, it's hard to find even the opportunity to be a solid tank.
Unfortunately, I don't really see an easy solution here -- if you aren't in a position where you can tank, the best thing to do is to get in one. Either make buddies with a main tank who wants to switch out every once in a while, or start up your own guild and do the raidleading yourself. I haven't been a serious raid healer for a while, either, but I'd assume it's basically the same on that side -- at the highest levels, things probably get pretty cutthroat. And as long as there are limited spots for many more interested people, no amount of game balance will be able to change that. All you can do is perform as best you can and hope that when the opportunity comes along, you're there to take it.
Filed under: Druid, Death Knight, Bosses, Raiding, Instances, Odds and ends, Analysis / Opinion, Warrior, Paladin, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Ventras Dec 7th 2009 1:32PM
The only way to keep MT spot is to perform at your best.
Wyred Dec 7th 2009 3:33PM
He's talking about getting a tanking spot in the first place.
jrizutko Dec 7th 2009 3:57PM
This.
The situation described isn't so much about a glass ceiling as much as putting in your dues. Being an MT is about building a reputation for reliability, and anyone can do it if they want to. Respeccing and farming 5-mans =/= MT.
Sqtsquish Dec 7th 2009 4:19PM
IMO The biggest thing to getting a RL to let u MT is to overcompensate. When I say overcompensate I mean to make it seem like you are the best of the best available to them. This sorta feels like it goes without saying but it almost feels like a fulltime job sometimes. When the RL thinks MT he has to think YOU over the other tanks in your guild. Even volunteering to OT or switch specs can take emphasis off you as a tank later on down the road.
The reason I say you have to overcompensate is because almost always for any raid spot out there other people are going to want it just as much as you are even in a casual guild. Your other guildies whether cut-throat or casual buddies, may not specifically want your spot but they still want a spot and if the RL thinks they would be better at it then you then you have lost most of the battle already.
And lastly I'd say a mixture of discretion and boldness to know when is pushing too much and to be able to keep your other guildies confident in your abilities as a MT.
Eisengel Dec 8th 2009 7:02AM
Being MT isn't necessarily about being the best or putting in your dues. There has to be a slot for you to fill. If there is no opportunity for the spot, you won't get it.
I usually topped my guild's DPS heartily on my SPriest all through BC and up until ToC where scaling just clobbered me. I also started tanking in BC on my Druid mostly because my guild went through a rough patch and a split, so raiding wasn't possible for a while. Threat being what it was for SPriests in BC I kept a really sharp eye on the tanks I ran with and had a pretty good idea what they did when. My runs went well, although I put my Druid to the side when Wrath came out.
After I got clobbered by scaling I starting working on getting a DK together to tank, but
the problem was there already were about 4 other tanks, all better geared than I was. There was no reason for them to pass on gear upgrades when they already had more experience tanking, and there was no reason to use my tank since I was barely tipping the defense cap... so my my DK tank languished. I started leveling my Druid, but unending grind to collect piles of Arctic Fur and Nerubian Chitin for intro gear just exceeded my patience. I then started healing Disc as my SPriest's dual-spec, and it was honestly a lot easier than I thought it would be. I never healed raids, but I healed some rough 5-mans with my only previous experience being Wailing Caverns.
The point is, I knew the fights, had a good grasp of aggro mechanics, knew how to gear, had tanked for a while before, but there were just too many tanks that already were more established. There was really no way for me to step in. Either I could gimp a raid by MTing in my crappy gear, or gimp the raid by DPSing on offspec and hope tanky pieces that weren't upgrades dropped that absolutely no else wanted or could use. I did MT some Naxx runs, and I did find them easier than a lot of 5-mans at appropriate levels, but I could never overcome the gear edge and just sheer number of other tanks.
rhesje Dec 7th 2009 1:53PM
I run in a fairly large but laid back guild that allows any member to start up their own raid group and when I hit the issue you described above i just decided to start my own raid to side step the issue. Our raid is currently about to move into ToC 10 and then the Icecrown raids and it has been both a great learning experience for me as a tank and a raid leader as well as a lot of fun progressing through the content in Ulduaar. I understand that for smaller guilds this may not be an option as you don't have enough players to fill up multiple raids but then maybe you need to be thinking about moving to a larger guild that gives you more opportunities.
Babaloo Dec 7th 2009 3:12PM
Ahh, good times in Ulduaar.
Rich Dec 7th 2009 3:09PM
The other problem is the need for tanks drops when you get into 25 mans.
5 man = 1 tank
10 man = 2 tanks
25 man = 2-3 tanks
so going from 5 to 10 man, you double the people and you double the needed tanks, but when you go from 10 to 25 man the number of tanks doesn't scale in a similar way.
So it creates limited number of tank slots. Which means the best ones get the slots, but the ones who came in late or are new can't prove themselves unless the attrition rate of tanks is high enough.
Tridus Dec 7th 2009 3:12PM
This, exactly. The ratio of tank to total group size goes like this:
1:5
1:5
1:8.3 (assuming 3 tanks in your typical 25 man)
Its a similar problem in reverse for healers, 25 mans have proportionally more healers then 5 mans and many 10 mans (some use 3 healers which evens it out some).
uncaringbear Dec 7th 2009 4:56PM
The flip side to having a limited number of tanks in 25 mans is that the instances are a veritable loot pinata for tanks. With less competition to roll against, the tanks are always bathing in loot. Tanks are absolutely spoiled in this regard.
The reverse is true for healers. Suddenly we go from 2 healers (maybe 3) in 10 mans, to 5 healers in 25 mans. Combine that with DPS often rolling on our gear, and it's hardly surprising that our main healers have such difficulty cracking the guild's top 10 gear list.
Nirva Dec 7th 2009 5:13PM
If this is the case (which I believe it is, to an extent), then it just further separates the gap between tanks into those which have 245+ loot and those still with uldduar/badge loot, again leaving a select few for end-game content.
Nirva Dec 7th 2009 5:35PM
(side note) the ratio for 5/10 mans is 1:4 not 1:5. 1 tank for 4 others = 5 people)
Malachi Dec 7th 2009 7:15PM
@Nirva
No, its 1:5. 1 in 5 is a tank in a 5-man & 10-man. 1 in ~8 is a tank in 25-man.
Angus Dec 7th 2009 7:33PM
TotC should be done with 2 tanks in fights 2 and 4, none in 3, and 3 in fights 1 and 5.
Sad thing is this ratio can remain in 10 or 25 man.
When there is no real difference in the number of a slot but you add 15 players, you are asking for a problem with how that slot interacts on other levels.
I could spend a week in 5 mans and never be bored. I can actually sit out fights with our other capable tanks in totc.
Healers, not so much because they seem to be a minimum of 1 per 5 people.
Rollo Dec 7th 2009 7:54PM
Nirva is correct, 1/5 or "one in five" is the same as 1:4 or "one to four." We get the meaning anyway though. :)
Teaspoon Dec 7th 2009 7:54PM
Malachi, nope. 1:5 means a *ratio* of one tank *to* five non-tank players, which is a six-person group. 1/5 would be correct as that's a *rate* of one tank *out of* five players.
Tyrannius Dec 8th 2009 12:32AM
"The reverse is true for healers. Suddenly we go from 2 healers (maybe 3) in 10 mans, to 5 healers in 25 mans. Combine that with DPS often rolling on our gear, and it's hardly surprising that our main healers have such difficulty cracking the guild's top 10 gear list."
What do you mean suddenly, uncaringbear? Everything stays the same.
1/5 are healers in 5 mans.
2/10 are healers in 5 mans.
5/25 are healers in 5 mans.
jtrain Dec 7th 2009 3:11PM
It's always seemed odd to me that dungeon/raid scaling didn't stay proportionate. A 5-man has 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps (usually). It would stand to reason that a 10-man would have 2 tanks, and a 25-man would have 5 tanks, 5 healers and 15 dps. The game just isn't set up that way though, and would take a pretty substantial redesign to make it so. The idea of a main tank at all is a little weird to me anyway. I always preferred encounters that just had a need for X tanks, and who was MT and who was OT didn't really matter.
Eliezer Dec 7th 2009 3:28PM
Its a by-product of the aggro model. Focus on one target for healing. The basic encounter is is your DPS faster in overcoming the Boss' HP reserve than the Boss' DPS ability to drain or outpace your healers.
To go to a multi-tank solution encounters would need to be wholly redesigned as to how aggro works. Or, in the interim, you'd have to see more encounters like Patchwerk.
Hoggersbud Dec 7th 2009 3:49PM
How many tanks can you have on one boss? Or how many tank targets can you have before a fight is about that instead of any other mechanics?
Yeah, I just don't think 5 tanks in a 25-man would work.